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Discussion Starter #1
Some of you know that I contacted Kteller about a month ago about making a catback.
What size piping would most of you be interested in 2.25 or 2.5?
What style of muffler?
I have already talked to him about the AWD.
Any questions or suggestions please post them here & lets get a disscussion going as to what we want. :)
 

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2.25 piping is plenty on the E, 2.5 is not enough back pressure for low to mid range rpm driving, which calculates into low city gas mileage. 2.5 can be used, it has been used, but I recommend a truck muffler to really assist in giving back some back pressure. Are these just aluminzed or are we able to get 304 stainless, for us salt states. Another option is a pre-resonator, can we add one to lower interior drone. Some will want a under chassis muffler and there will be the type N1 muffler guys. I am happy you can get something going, just make sure it also lines up with the sc bumper.
Later
 

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Nice!

2 or 2.25" is more than enough. The 4X4 people need to keep the under car clearance in mind. As for the fart can on the back. It looks stupid on an E. There have been several posted on the site, none look like they belong on it.

A 304 SS system is what I would be interested in. If your going to put out the money, you want something that will last.

Thanks

Dom
 

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Discussion Starter #4
2.25 piping is plenty on the E, 2.5 is not enough back pressure for low to mid range rpm driving, which calculates into low city gas mileage. 2.5 can be used, it has been used, but I recommend a truck muffler to really assist in giving back some back pressure. Are these just aluminzed or are we able to get 304 stainless, for us salt states. Another option is a pre-resonator, can we add one to lower interior drone. Some will want a under chassis muffler and there will be the type N1 muffler guys. I am happy you can get something going, just make sure it also lines up with the sc bumper.
Later
You do not need back pressure in any automotive exhaust system period.
I said something about the SC. insane_SC i'm gonna post up some links with some info to back that up if you or anyone else is interested.

I asked if there were any questions or anything that I could do to help & I got this email back.

"Nothing that I need off hand, I did need to know size. SO i am going to go w/ the idea that this will be a 2.5" OD system. Available in regular and stainless materials. This will be a piping kit only, which will include hardware but not be prewelded. Customers will have to have this installed locally by a shop or themselves. I will assume most will use a similar to stock like muffler, size and shape. I ll update you more shortly; These will be roughly priced in the $250 range for stainless and $200 for Regular Steel."

I sent a message back saying that so far 2.25 is the winning size. 2.25 will support about 200whp so thats more then enough for the Element.
 

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I'm not interested in making it louder, just more power. The large truck turbo mufflers are good for that. I'm thinking we could get away without needing a resonator, if we had a 2.25" tube from the catayst into a 2.25" inlet muffler with a 2" tailpipes. It's been shown that typically once the flow goes through the muffler of an exhaust system, a slightly smaller tailpipe has virtually no penalty on power, but significantly drops dB levels. One step further would be to have the exhaust exit on the drivers side perpendicular to the wheel rather than straight out the back. The extra tailpipe length would further reduce noise, without causing powerloss. The only concern would be a location to mount the exhaust hangers, and clearance to a hitch.
 

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I'd really want the flow improvement without the noise penalty. I think we could remove the resonator completely (which can add backpressure and slow exhaust velocity), if we went with a 2.25" catback straight into a 2.25" inlet turbo truck muffler (in stock location), followed by a 2" out tailpipe that turned 90° and exited out the driver's side behind the rear tire. This would keep the low range torque up (good velocity, low backpressure), but with increased power.

Even better if there was room to run the muffler transversely (further you move the muffler downstream, the better), and out the driver's side. But consideration would need to be taken for vehicles with hitches, and there would need to be somewhere to attach hangers to support the exhaust on the driver's side.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Does anyone know the ID of the oem piping? I can measure the tailpipe but am not really sure if its the same from the manifold back.
 

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I would prefer 2.5" with a long muffler mounted in the stock location. straight out the rear, and not a 90 degree behind the rear wheel. 2.25 is ok to "create more backpressure", but not ideal for performance with a 2.4l sized engine. If increasing torque is the focus, I don't think upgrading the exhaust system in any way, would be benificial to that respect. When you increase the flow of the exhaust system over the factory unit, the torque will minimally increase naturually, or flatten out when compared to the factory unit.

The outlet on the OBX header is 2.5", the rest of the exhaust should not be smaller. I doubt the OBX header will bolt up to anything smaller actually, because the previous OBX header I had on my civic w/B18c swap had a 2.5" outlet, and I had to install an exhaust with the same diameter in order for it to bolt up. I dynoed it with the factory header and exhaust and then with the OBX header and 2.5 exhaust the tqe increased 3 ft/lbs to 119ft/lbs and the hp increased 12hp to 174hp. This is on a 1.8l engine. Now with the Element, we are talking a much larger engine, that is designed to produce tqe over hp, i think 2.25 would be crippling it somewhat.
 

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The 2.4l in the element is low compression/small cammed/mpg motor for one. The 2.5" on a stock element motor, even with a large truck muffler is going to hurt performance. Think, my 5.7L camaro ran single 3" split to 2-2 1/2" outlets out back and had great torque and midrange, I then tried a mufflex 4" system, I lost a ton of low end, a ton!! Putting a 2.5" exhaust on a stock 2.4L is way overkill, you will suffer all around, it is not tuned at all. If you were pushing over 200hp at the wheels, then I could agree, but you probably getting 135 to 140 if your lucky.

Also, the OBX may be 2.5" out but you can get a ball reducer, run through a 2.25 cat or get the magnaflow 2.5 in 2.25 out cat.
 

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The 2.4l in the element is low compression/small cammed/mpg motor for one. The 2.5" on a stock element motor, even with a large truck muffler is going to hurt performance. Think, my 5.7L camaro ran single 3" split to 2-2 1/2" outlets out back and had great torque and midrange, I then tried a mufflex 4" system, I lost a ton of low end, a ton!! Putting a 2.5" exhaust on a stock 2.4L is way overkill, you will suffer all around, it is not tuned at all. If you were pushing over 200hp at the wheels, then I could agree, but you probably getting 135 to 140 if your lucky.

Also, the OBX may be 2.5" out but you can get a ball reducer, run through a 2.25 cat or get the magnaflow 2.5 in 2.25 out cat.
I agree with everything but the muffler comment. Anything above 2 1/4 is overkill for a naturally aspirated 2.4L, especially considering the Elements weight. But you do want the muffler to flow as good as the straight pipe for maximum efficiency. The Truck Turbo will do that without a large noise penalty.

The 90° bend after the muffler and out the side would not reduce performance in the least, only further tame the noise. A reduction in exhaust piping downstream has been shown to reduce noise with insignificant penalty to performance. First of all, as the exhaust gases cool they take up less volume. Second, once you've reduced the velocity due to the muffler, no increase in tube size after the muffler will improve it. A properly designed exhaust system can increase hp, without significantly impacting low to mid-range torque.

My '93 Z28 had a y-pipe into 2 5/8" single and then the crossover muffler with dual 2.5" out. With CAI, TPS adjustment, synthetic fluids, and 305/40R16 (since discontinued) it ran consistent 13.7s (stock was 14.3s.). Interesting to note, I had a test pipe made to replace the catalytic convertor (for track purposes only of course :). I baselined with several runs on the stock exhaust. Then I removed the cat, and decided for giggles to do a run with the exhaust open (so only had manifolds and y-pipe). The car idled and sounded like a pro-stocker. This actually turned out to be embarrasing as I proceeded to lose about 4/10ths in the 1/4 mile. I then added the test pipe, and made several more runs. The overall time was same as full exhaust, the only difference was the speed increased by a consistent 1mph. This indicated I gained horsepower at the expense of usable torque.
 

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2 1/4 max will do fine. you want low to no back presure but with veloicty ,2.5 and up will loose that.a good 2"would probly work good also. the muffler tubing is 1.690-1.767 on my 05. tail pipe is 1.89 (I think,brain fade ) about 1.90 out of the cat,2.20 in to the cat. so if the rear of the cat was cut off & a 2.25 was belmouthed out & welded back on the cat so it would have a true 2.250 out then it could take full advantages of a 2 1/4 system. when is this going to take place??? & how much ? I am ready to do mine now. but as far as the mufflers & the dreaded drone ,I havent a clue!!!! I wish I had more time & more experance with our bender.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I ll update you more shortly; These will be roughly priced in the $250 range for stainless and $200 for Regular Steel."
Info from post #4 on pricing. As for when i'm not sure. I post up info as I get it. I'm trying to contact venders to get stuff made for us it just takes some commentment from customers to buy a product.
If your interested please post up. Michael from Kteller checks this thread.
 

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This sounds very strange to me. This isn't a company looking to get into creating an exhaust for the Element. This is a company that is looking to create a Tinker Toy exhaust for the Element.

How many people want to purchase a bunch of pipes and connectors that they then need to get a professional to weld together for them? You are asking quite a bit from a muffler shop to trust someone else's pipes and connectors to be correct. How would you ever know if the welding was done wrong or the parts were cut wrong?

Why can't they weld the pieces together? For $250 I would expect this to be a complete kit... why no muffler???

My vote would be if you are interested in finding an exhaust for the Element then go to a company that is willing to build one as a complete kit... Too many people would want to install this themselves and with a Tinker Toy/Lego type kit that is just not possible.

Sorry...



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Discussion Starter #15
This sounds very strange to me. This isn't a company looking to get into creating an exhaust for the Element. This is a company that is looking to create a Tinker Toy exhaust for the Element.

How many people want to purchase a bunch of pipes and connectors that they then need to get a professional to weld together for them? You are asking quite a bit from a muffler shop to trust someone else's pipes and connectors to be correct. How would you ever know if the welding was done wrong or the parts were cut wrong?

Why can't they weld the pieces together? For $250 I would expect this to be a complete kit... why no muffler???

My vote would be if you are interested in finding an exhaust for the Element then go to a company that is willing to build one as a complete kit... Too many people would want to install this themselves and with a Tinker Toy/Lego type kit that is just not possible.

Sorry...
You should do so research before you start degrading about something that you obviously know nothing about. Check out Honda-Tech,Clubrsx,etc & see if you find anyone complaining about Ktellers kits not being top quality. The point of a kit like this is to give the end user "true enthusiasts" an option to go with any muffler they want from a particular sound to flow rate & anywhere in between. Show me a quality complete catback for $250! Don't even come back with some "custom catback" from your local billybob muffler shop. 99% of the time with local shops your getting grabage crush bent piping. If you are lucky enough to have a local shop that can do mandrel bent pipe its gonna cost alot more.
If you are only interested in prepackaged bolt on catbacks then you Injen & Gibson are your only options. If you want mandrel bent catback with unlimited muffler options this is the best bet if it ever happens. Kteller checks this thread & you guys coming in here bashing stuff that you don't know anything about are hurting the chances for getting stuff made for the Element owners that want more then off the shelf products that are on the market today.
 

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You should do so research before you start degrading about something that you obviously know nothing about. Check out Honda-Tech,Clubrsx,etc & see if you find anyone complaining about Ktellers kits not being top quality. The point of a kit like this is to give the end user "true enthusiasts" an option to go with any muffler they want from a particular sound to flow rate & anywhere in between. Show me a quality complete catback for $250! Don't even come back with some "custom catback" from your local billybob muffler shop. 99% of the time with local shops your getting grabage crush bent piping. If you are lucky enough to have a local shop that can do mandrel bent pipe its gonna cost alot more.
If you are only interested in prepackaged bolt on catbacks then you Injen & Gibson are your only options. If you want mandrel bent catback with unlimited muffler options this is the best bet if it ever happens. Kteller checks this thread & you guys coming in here bashing stuff that you don't know anything about are hurting the chances for getting stuff made for the Element owners that want more then off the shelf products that are on the market today.

It's obvious from your post, that you don't know Larry ( spdrcr5 ) !!!

He like many of our members has extensive racing experience. He no doubt has more time driving on the track, than you have on the street!

His observations are not without merit! In fact, as stated, he is in line with the thoughts of many members. Yours is not the only view to be considered in this forum. What a manufacturer may, or may not do, is not going to be influenced by A post in this forum. If it is then they should give up on performance parts and make toilet paper instead .

Keep in mind, Larry like myself, has had the opportunity to put some of the theory's to the test of racing personally. As you well know there are several schools of thought in the automotive industry. To advocate just one, is not conducive to a healthy forum.


Good luck with your quest !

Dom
 

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Discussion Starter #18
This sounds very strange to me. This isn't a company looking to get into creating an exhaust for the Element. This is a company that is looking to create a Tinker Toy exhaust for the Element.
That is very negitave statment directed @ Kteller made by spdrcr5 If there was an example or refference other then keyboard speculation then I would be happy to listen.
But thats not the case that spdrcr5 made he just doesn't like this set up & thats fine but I don't see the upside of the bashing.
Dom.five you normally post good stuff but i'm not seeing any of what your saying. Where is the "different school of thought" in this post?
You are correct I don't know larry "spdrcr5" nor is that relavant to anything. Dom you don't know me at all & no spdrcr5 has nowhere near the track time as I have on the street lol.

I asked what size piping people would be interested in for a mandrel piping kit that you would add your own muffler to.

Anyways lets try to keep this on topic. If your not interested no problem. If you have a concern or question post it up, but bashing something that you have no 1st or 2nd hand info about is not helpful to anyone no matter the subject.
 

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That is very negitave statment directed @ Kteller made by spdrcr5 If there was an example or refference other then keyboard speculation then I would be happy to listen.
But thats not the case that spdrcr5 made he just doesn't like this set up & thats fine but I don't see the upside of the bashing.
Dom.five you normally post good stuff but i'm not seeing any of what your saying. Where is the "different school of thought" in this post?
You are correct I don't know larry "spdrcr5" nor is that relavant to anything. Dom you don't know me at all & no spdrcr5 has nowhere near the track time as I have on the street lol.

I asked what size piping people would be interested in for a mandrel piping kit that you would add your own muffler to.

Anyways lets try to keep this on topic. If your not interested no problem. If you have a concern or question post it up, but bashing something that you have no 1st or 2nd hand info about is not helpful to anyone no matter the subject.
Nothing I said is negative. It is fact all based on what YOU said the exhaust would consist of. If someone is going to spend $250 on an exhaust then they also need to know that there is going to be several hundred dollars worth of welding, fitting and a need to purchase a muffler and a pre-muffler(if that is being used in this design, it isn't stated). If you think the truth is negative then you have an extremely thin skin...

Any time I have purchased something such as this exhaust I have always wanted to know what it would cost me. That includes EVERY single item including parts not included as well as potential installation costs. But if you prefer to keep people in the dark then have them get a nice surprise when they go to install it in their driveways... that is wrong and I will speak up about such things every time I see them.



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Just to emphasize what this company would be offering.



Please make note that the flanges are NOT welded onto the pipes, this would require either you to have your own welder and know how to use it or you need to find a muffler shop or performance shop that is willing to put this "kit" together for you. This would require lots of fitting and spot welding, then grinding the welds to then refit it again and again. You are talking time consuming and something that could get expensive if the shop has never done anything like this before. The installation cost could easily match the price for the pipes themselves, then add on the cost of the muffler(s)...

Buyer beware is all I am saying... Not being negative, being a realist!



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