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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

We just purchased a 2008 SC from a dealer yesterday. Got a good deal because I was really hungry and kept hinting at going out to lunch. They gave us our price rather than letting us out the door without the car :).

Drove it home 130 miles. Nice little car. Acceleration was about what I expected, steering was reasonably tight, body roll in turns was minimal. BUT OH THAT ROAD NOISE!

I suffer from tinnitus ( ringing in the ears ) and it is aggravated by loud noises. Getting home yesterday, the shrieking in my ears was so loud that it was hard to sleep.

So it looks like I either soundproof the car, or sell it.
Last night, this forum gave me a lot of information. When the ringing woke me up at 1:00 in the morning, I got up and
ordered about $600 worth of soundproofing supplies:

Two Dynamat door kits ( for four doors ).
Two Dynamat trunk kits.
One Dynamat 36-square-foot bulk kit.
Six yards of Ensolite.

Is this enough stuff? What else do I need? I figure I can
get the spray adhesive at the hardware store. Do I need one of those Dynamat rollers?

From the pictures, the Element interior looks pretty simple.
Are there any tricks I should know? It's a REALLY nice car, and I don't want to bugger it up. Fortunately, I am a pretty
good auto mechanic ( used to do it for a living ) and have done quite a bit of hobby auto repair and restoration over the years since leaving that business.

My research hints that the SC is even louder than the lower trim versions, because of the low profile tires. Any thoughts as to how much difference that makes? Are there quieter low profile tires than the Goodyear Eagles that are on it now?

Thanks in advance,

- Jerry Kaidor
 

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There are better and quieter tires out there. Go to tirerack.com to do some research. Put in your size ( 225/55/18 ) and when all the tires show up click on the surveys to find the quiet ones. You will see the Goodyear s are not the best ones for noise. You can also look for the 235/55/18 size and get a whole better class of tire that will fit very nice.
Oh and Discount tire will match the price but they may need to order them.
 

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just a thought

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise,_vibration,_and_harshness


I know of a few cases of time and money spent, while adding weight, with unsatisfactory results.

There are a few DIY techniques to help find prominent contributors to noise, which will help you estimate the kinds of solution you might try, given the costs involved.

Be aware there are many who will sell magic acoustic materials, install them and have no ability to justify their recommendations or prove the results work.

True story: circa 1985

Many years ago, was with a girlfriend at a Christmas party , mostly professional classical musicians (NAC Ottawa), a number chatting about how many thousands of dollars their practice booth in their basement cost them, because, 'You know darling, the furnace noise is unbearable'.

Lots of forced air furnaces. Six months of winter.

So, as there was lots of really good wine and food, and I like good wine, my tongue got a wee bit loose, and, I asked these highly educated musicians why they didn't start with a precision bearing/ low noise blower motor, replace the blower bearings and add a bellows between the furnace and duct work ( to decouple the resonance, natch!) , as it was probably rattling sheet metal ducts and grates that was unbearable.

Total cost, maybe $1,000, and the quiet applies to the entire house 24/7, not just the practise booth.

Room got quiet. They were not pleased with my rudeness at all. I was just a punk kid, after all. They were artists.

I didn't now the difference between a G string and a minor chord.

All I know today is to stay away from any minor G string.

A lawyer friend, not a musican educated me on that one. Go figure.

And knowing how acoustics help people make up home recording studios does not count as educated, sorry.

Installing A/V and theater arts facilities in local high schools was for simpletons too.

Owning a copy of 'The Audio Cyclopedia' was just crass. And reading AES journals was showing off.

had the internet and Google been handy back then :

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Acoustics/Acoustics_in_Violins

would have got me into deep deep trouble.

The local internationally respected acoustician, who designed their place of employment and performance , the National Arts Center (NAC) , would have gotta hoot out my predicament.

Well, I wanted some way out of my gauche comments, but was still enjoying their wine, (I couldn't afford that stuff, but they could afford to out-do each other in wine and practise booths too, for that matter) so, as way of comic relief, I said something like, 'I hear wood stoves are really quiet'.

There were still shooting the messenger in the 20th century.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
After doing more searches in the forum for soundproofing and related subjects, I realize that my question was a little naive - it's a VERY BIG SUBJECT.

Most of my questions were answered by the forum search. A few more were answered by a copy of the factory shop manual that I bought on Ebay.

An interesting hint that I saw somewhere is that many installations overuse the Dynamat - it's a vibration dampener, it's heavy. Once you stop the panel resonance, there may be more benefit to adding lightweight absorptive materials like Ensolite. One article I read said that it's enough to vibration-damp 1/4 of the surface area of a panel.

I'm hoping to limit the added weight to 50 pounds.

I think that
* The deafening road noise is made by the tires hitting the road ( duhhh ).
* Tire/Road vibrations are transmitted through the tires, through the wheels, through the wheel bearings through the suspension to the chassis at two places: where the suspension bolts to the chassis, and where the shocks terminate at the body.
* The body members resonate just like the head of a drum, and couple the
vibrations to the air inside the car.

The Element replaces our dear departed Jaguar XJ6, which was eerily quiet, especially concerning engine noise. Reason? The engine was rubber mounted - not to the body, but to the suspension, which was separately rubber mounted to the body. So as far as engine vibrations were concerned, the vibration trip pretty much ended at the suspension, because the tires acted as giant dampers.

WRT the musicians and their practice rooms - I'm not surprised they gave you the cold shoulder. Imagine - you've just spent multiple K on this project, you're proud of it - and somebody shows up and says it was all unnecessary and foolish. Well, the musicians gained one more benefit - keeping their families sane. Could you imagine living with a professional musician, hearing them practice - the same stuff - over and over - multiple hours a day?

I did some serious web research into sound control in the late 90's. The Neighbors from Hell had moved in next door. Constant partying, chatting until the small hours of the morning - on the street in front of our house.

Basically, what I read about were walls with two panels floating free - staggered 2x4 studs, one row holding the outer wall, the other holding the inner wall. And fiberglass insulation between them, but the main thing was those two separate walls. But before I did that, we found a non-technical solution. We moved.

I looked at tirerack.com for quieter tires. Not easy. Almost every tire has somebody saying "this is an unusually quiet tire", and somebody else saying "this is a very noisy tire" :).

- Jerry Kaidor
 

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I Just tried my first attempt at noise reduction in my '05. After 132k miles, I thought I would try some inexpensive, non-invasive, quick methods. I bought 4 cans of spray undercoating, one for each wheel well. I removed each wheel and sprayed 2-3 coats into each.

Well, the noise changed. It might be a deeper sounding noise now, but it just changed. At low speeds (to 40 mph) I seem to have more engine noise. At higher speeds, the road noise is just a deeper sound.

It looks like the rest of the underbody could use some undercoating. I'll buy a few more cans and try that in a couple of weeks.

I'll also look into insulating under the hood. Spending a $1000 to strip the interior is not an option.
 

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Hi, just me 2cents worth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIL-STD-810

And this spec is at version F!!! I was up to date at Rev C, so be forewarned.

Your taxes have paid for the solutions many times over. I'd bet Honda spent millions of Yen on NVA for any of their cars.

The paths of mechanical energy can be viewed as transmission lines. Interrupt as best you can ( time/cost) the transmission of mechanical energy with a dampener (decoupling is a term used a lot), of any number of variations, less energy to resonate the cab, in theory.

Find some person/company local to you who has an understanding of these things, you might find a solution you find affordable.

Some companies/ suppliers offer samples too.

Important note: these dampeners ( SO MANY TYPES) degrade as they work to consume mechanical energy, thus they become a maintenance issue/PITA.


But, Honda designed a party-mobile for all the young dudes. They could care less about this vehicle being quiet. They offered a 270 watt radio, in a box of tin, plastic and glass...not a patch sound dampening carpet. Until the SC...


For all I know, toss a few wooly sheep in the back and it would be so much quieter, despite the all that ruminent bleating.

Just consider the nature of the problem is all I am saying.

I wish to hear of your success in this matter.

The secret words and concepts here are resonance and decoupling.

Find your nemisis transmission lines...bingo.


Unless those far more knowledgable kick up a fuss.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Almost ready to go here.

  • Have printed out and comb-bound the appropriate sections of the Shop Manual.
  • Have in hand, the toolkit recommended by Honda for pulling panels and prying fasteners without damage.
  • Have received the two Dynamat "Trunk Kits".
Still waiting on...
  • The 36-square-foot bulk kit.
  • The door kits.
  • The 6 yards of Ensolite.

I am not aiming at library quiet here. I just want the road noise low enough so it doesn't damage my ears, that's all. And I really want to limit the weight of this. The Element has a useful load of 675 pounds, every pound of silencing
material will subtract from this.

I remember just enough about transmission line theory to be dangerous :roll:. Mostly about standing waves, which occur in any transmission line that is not perfectly terminated. Going along the line, there will be places where the amplitude of vibration is large, and it's strength ( the ability to keep vibrating when you try to stop it ) is low. And other places where the amplitude is low and the strength is high. If you chose all the low-amplitude/high-strength places, you could pile on an awful lot of Dynamat with little effect.

These are complex shapes - but I'm going to guess that the
best bang for the buck here will be by concentrating on the centers of large low-crown panels.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Got started today.

To do the floors, I started with the spare tire area, and moved forward to the front. Instructions said to remove the console between the seats.

I was looking forward to just undoing a couple of pins and hooks. Turns out that's the story with the LX - the SC console is _considerably_ more complex. There are lots of fasteners, and a veritable forest of hooks, pins, and clips at the front. Not to mention an electrical connector buried in the middle of it all that is VERY reluctant to come apart.

I seem to have everything undone, and still the damn thing won't come out. Finally, I gave up for the moment, and Dynamat'd the spare tire well.

I popped out the covers for the shock towers. Dynamat'd the inside of the covers. Also, the top of the shock terminates in a formed piece of sheet metal - looks kind of like a bell. Rings like a bell too, when you tap it. I put two layers of Dynamat around each bell.

It seems clear to me that the doors are very important. Tap on them, they resound like a drum. I plan to sneak as much Dynamat as possible onto the outer skins.

- Jerry
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Back to the fight this morning.

That console is almost -almost ALMOST out. Am at an impasse with the electrical connector for the 12V and AUX sockets on the console. Undid the connector from its little slide mount, pulled it out with its wires.

Pull and pry as I might, the two halves are not coming apart.
There are a couple of little "wedgies" that lock the "slide-in"
part into the "slide over" part. I pried those out a bit, they popped out with a click. Not really "out" as in put them aside, but just further out on the body of the slide-in part. Am I supposed to pry them more and then set them aside?

What's the secret? I am reluctant to pry and pull to hard, don't want to break anything.

- Jerry
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Got the electrical connector apart. There was a little tab to push in at the end, then it just came apart.

Got the console out, too. Secret there was just one last bolt I hadn't taken out.

- Jerry Kaidor
 

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Got the electrical connector apart. There was a little tab to push in at the end, then it just came apart.

Got the console out, too. Secret there was just one last bolt I hadn't taken out.

- Jerry Kaidor
If you can, take pics of the console when you put it back in. I have been trying
to take mine out, and I cant figure out what Im missing. Pics of that last
screw/bolt, and anything else you think may need to be removed.

Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
If you can, take pics of the console when you put it back in. I have been trying
to take mine out, and I cant figure out what Im missing. Pics of that last
screw/bolt, and anything else you think may need to be removed.

Thanks.
*** Unfortunately, it's back together. I didn't think to take any pictures. I wanted to get it together without delay, before forgetfulness set in.

HOWEVER, I can tell you what the solution was. The last screw was at the very bottom, under the metal cross-brace,
toward the R/H ( passenger ) side of the console. There is
also a screw on the top of the cross brace, on the L/H side.

The other part of the solution is that you MUST remove the L/H subpanel ( curved part that forms the bottom of the ceiling of the lower tray ) before pulling the console out. It's hard to get it out because the drivers seat is in the way, but
persevere and it will ultimately pull free. Then the console
pulls out to the rear, easy as pie.

Contrariwise, you must install the console withOUT that L/H subpanel, and install the subpanel AFTER you have put the console in place.

While I had the console out, I applied Dynamat to all its interior hidden surfaces.

- Jerry Kaidor
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I have applied Dynamat to the entire floor aft of the front seats, as well as the spare tire well. The car is back together.

It seems about as noisy as before :(.

I'm really not surprised. The SC already has reasonable damping on the floor, and also carpets with jute padding, and fabric mats over the carpets.

I think the real payoff will come when I do the doors.

- Jerry Kaidor
 

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Keep up the good fight Jerry...! Sounds (pardon the pun) like you're making progress and I'm chiming in so that I can subscribe as well...

Have you decided on tires...? Curious to see what you choose...! Thanks for the running commentary on this mod...!

LBD
 

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Discussion Starter #16
OK,

I did three of the doors today. Ran out of steam and spray adhesive, the
fourth door ( passenger side rear ) will be tomorrow.

I concentrated on the outer skins. Pretty much covered them in Dynamat, fed in chunk by chunk through the little holes. That killed the resonance of the panels.

Then I applied a layer of Ensolite over the Dynamat. Then on the inner skins I put little bits of Dynamat over any medium flat areas. I did NOT cover the entire inner skin with Dynamat like some I have seen. I think that the inner skin just is not a avibrating drum, like the outer one is.

I reapplied the original moisture barrier. On a test drive around the neighborhood, the noise seems to be less. And lower in tone. But won't know for sure until I get it on the freeway.

Difficulties in the job included

* That bead of yuck that holds the moisture barrier in place is some of the messier stuff I've dealt with. It has almost no surface tension - you touch it, it's coming off on you. Luckily, it's not that hard to wash off.

* The plastic push pins that hold the trim onto the inner panel are VERY
strong. But the inner panel itself is not. One of the stand-off holes broke off on the first door. Then on the second door also. Actually, on the second ( driver ) door, TWO of those standoff holes broke off.

I think the inner trim is ABS plastic. So I glued the standoff holes back on with ABS cement ( available in the plumbing department of your hardware store ). ABS cement creates a solvent weld, and the two pieces become one. It's better than epoxy, which will ultimately flake off. But its very slow, because it "cures" by solvent evaporation. While I was at it, I reinforced the other standoff holes ( that did not break ) with beads of
ABS cement.

* Squirreling pieces of material, covered with agressive adhesives, through
little holes - is messy work.

- Jerry Kaidor
 

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Discussion Starter #17
OK, finished the last door this morning. Now all the doors sound "dead" when you thump them.

I walked around the car thumping things looking for "lively" panels. The front fenders are a little loud. But the Queens of Sound now are obviously the upper areas of the rear fenders - they ring like bells!

Hope it's not too hard to get the rear interior trim apart.

- Jerry
 

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I hate that is saw this a little late but...

Vibration dampeners such as Dynamat, Damplifier, eDead, etc. stops the resonance of flat panels, such as a door skin. It has less effect in stronger areas such as corners, humps, and folds. To help with road noise, you need a continuous barrier and most car audio guys use mass loaded vinyl (MLV) with a layer of closed cell foam (CCF, Ensolite) to insulate the MLV from the panels. For more info, read here... http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi

Here's a link to my sound deadening effort http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diyma-build-logs/85554-2008-honda-element.html

I still need to put some MLV in the doors, but putting it on the floor and rear area made a huge difference.
 

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Would be nice to know how this actually turned out in the end. I just picked up my EX a week ago. Right now I do all freeway driving with Monday and Friday being my longer drives (~100miles).

I was hoping to take the interior panels out, and do something similar to the ensolite. Looks like I also need some Dynamat type material as well to go over the ensolite?

Anyone have any luck, or helpful links (with pictures that work), on what they did for noise control?? Or is this something I just need to embrace?
 
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