[doryman]

I knew it was coming, just not this soon. What thinks you of this http://subaruinformation.blogspot.com/2009/01/forester-diesel.html ? I went back and forth a hundred times before I chose the Element over the Forester last year. But at twice the gas milage, I don't know anymore.

 

[MikeQBF]

From both automotive and industrial diesel experience, I have serious reservations about a boxer diesel. The opposing torsional forces on the crankshaft have to be tremendous. While I wish Suby best of luck with this, I personally would wait until we started hearing from 100K+-mile owners.

 

[marksbug]

if the crank is made corectly with all the counter weights theres less stress on everything, crank,block/case. just like my vw. & they dont use a harmonic damper. (I'm not sure if suby does or not,to far back for me to remember, we had one in the 70'sa 74 that thing would fly, then my brother put a 600 cfm holly race 2 bbl anular carb on it.(tomuch for the stock heads & cam)but did make more power.we went through a set of soft retreads every month,they were only about $16. each back then. ah to be yung dumb and full of cumotion.

 

[Briggsie]

I knew it was coming, just not this soon. What thinks you of this http://subaruinformation.blogspot.com/2009/01/forester-diesel.html ? I went back and forth a hundred times before I chose the Element over the Forester last year. But at twice the gas milage, I don't know anymore.

Aw...you're way better off with an Element. I had an Outback and everyone at Subaru knew there were bad problems with the '98 through '02 Outback head gaskets, but they were not recalled and they gave us all a stupid fix which didn't fix it -- some sort of conditioner they put in the coolant which didn't do a thing. Mine went south last year, and that's why I ended up buying the Element. I like the Element much much better in every way than the Subie (except for the heated seats and outside mirrors).

 

[ApriliaGuy]

everyone at Subaru knew there were bad problems with the '98 through '02 Outback head gaskets, but they were not recalled and they gave us all a stupid fix which didn't fix it -- some sort of conditioner they put in the coolant which didn't do a thing...

Yup. But they didn't fix it for the newer ones either. i gotta do the head gaskets in my wife's '04 Forester at less than 90k. The conditioner is basicly "BarsLeaks." :roll:

I'd love a Subie diesel.....better yet a Honda! I'd be waiting a few years to see how they hold up. Diesel is new to Subaru, but Honda has been doing it for a little while in Europe.

 

[Herc130]

I keep going over getting a diesel. It's more fuel efficient right? Lets compare a 2010 Jetta Sportwagen, because I can buy that through USAA in both TDI and gas 2.5L.

The Gas 2.5L gets 23city/30hwy. I'm not sure how they average out in real world conditions, but lets just go with (22+30)/2= 26.5. On a 300 mile trip that works out to 300/26= 11.32gallons to go 300 miles. So 11.32gal at $3.07 (cheapest gas price on Hawaii) or $34.75 for the trip.

The TDI does 30city/42hwy. So 36 average. 300/36= 8.33gallons to go 300 miles. Cheapest diesel on Hawaii right now is $3.48 a gallon, so that makes it $29 to go 300 miles.

So every 300 miles you save @$6

The 2.5L gas is @$21k to buy and the TDI is around $26k btw, soa $5k difference. $5000/$6= 833...the amount of times you have to save $6 till you hit 5000.

So 249,900 miles before you match up with the savings of fuel to the savings of a cheaper motor. Also, I used a more expensive 2.5L gas sportwagon, because I couldn't spec it out correctly and I think the option to go with the TDI is actually higher. I know on ford, to the diesel motor was a $6k+ option. Also, this depends alot on the price difference of gas to diesel. I think on average, you can expect the cheapest diesel to be .50 cents more then the cheapest gas.

I don't know reliability of diesel to gas, but diesel is lower RPM, so probably last longer normally, but I have seen honda gas motors exceed 300k and kept going.


I might just putt along in my little civic a bit longer and see the situation in 2011.

 

[doryman]

From both automotive and industrial diesel experience, I have serious reservations about a boxer diesel. The opposing torsional forces on the crankshaft have to be tremendous. While I wish Suby best of luck with this, I personally would wait until we started hearing from 100K+-mile owners.

Well, they've been on the road in Europe since early 2008. Shouldn't be too long before those reports come in.

 

[Dom.five]

I keep going over getting a diesel. It's more fuel efficient right? Lets compare a 2010 Jetta Sportwagen, because I can buy that through USAA in both TDI and gas 2.5L.

The Gas 2.5L gets 23city/30hwy. I'm not sure how they average out in real world conditions, but lets just go with (22+30)/2= 26.5. On a 300 mile trip that works out to 300/26= 11.32gallons to go 300 miles. So 11.32gal at $3.07 (cheapest gas price on Hawaii) or $34.75 for the trip.

The TDI does 30city/42hwy. So 36 average. 300/36= 8.33gallons to go 300 miles. Cheapest diesel on Hawaii right now is $3.48 a gallon, so that makes it $29 to go 300 miles.

So every 300 miles you save @$6

The 2.5L gas is @$21k to buy and the TDI is around $26k btw, soa $5k difference. $5000/$6= 833...the amount of times you have to save $6 till you hit 5000.

So 249,900 miles before you match up with the savings of fuel to the savings of a cheaper motor. Also, I used a more expensive 2.5L gas sportwagon, because I couldn't spec it out correctly and I think the option to go with the TDI is actually higher. I know on ford, to the diesel motor was a $6k+ option. Also, this depends alot on the price difference of gas to diesel. I think on average, you can expect the cheapest diesel to be .50 cents more then the cheapest gas.

I don't know reliability of diesel to gas, but diesel is lower RPM, so probably last longer normally, but I have seen honda gas motors exceed 300k and kept going.


I might just putt along in my little civic a bit longer and see the situation in 2011.

Yes when I did the math, I came to the same conclusion.

However, $ ARE NOT THE ONLY CONSIDERATION here!

Horse power and torque also figure into the equation. They ( diesel engines ) provide a more responsive feel as well as improved pulling power. Thus enhancing the drive-ability, utility, and longevity of the vehicle. It does one more thing, less important to me, Improves resale value! I usually keep a car so long, the junkies don't want it! :-D

Dom

 

[Dom.five]

From both automotive and industrial diesel experience, I have serious reservations about a boxer diesel. The opposing torsional forces on the crankshaft have to be tremendous. While I wish Suby best of luck with this, I personally would wait until we started hearing from 100K+-mile owners.

Other manufactures have made flat diesel engines in the past, that ran well.

For one Kubota makes one, Another is a German engine, Flat six. I can't remember the manufactures name. Then the other company that produces one is,Hino Motors DS140 12 cylinder boxer diesel engine.

I have only seen 2 of them in the U.S. . More info Here.

They were in boats. It's an interesting concept. I don't know anything about the durability factor of this design though. I was unable to find anything on line, of any value.

Dom

 

[xequar]

Yes when I did the math, I came to the same conclusion.

However, $ ARE NOT THE ONLY CONSIDERATION here!

Horse power and torque also figure into the equation. They provide a more responsive feel as well as improved pulling power. Thus enhancing the drive-ability, utility, and longevity of the vehicle. It does one more thing, less important to me, Improves resale value! I usually keep a car so long, the junkies don't want it! :-D

Dom

This ^^ I know of a guy that bought a (brand new at the time) 2002 Dodge Ram 1-Ton with the Cummins Diesel and heavy-duty manual transmission, and bragged about how much money he was saving. Of course, I questioned this statement given that he was getting 15-20 mpg with it.

His reply? Given that he was an engineer on that engine, he knew 500,000 miles was an easily obtainable mark, and that the transmission would last that long as well. He based all his math on keeping the truck for at least 500,000 miles, and was hoping for 1 million.

Now, whether he can get the body to hold together that long in Michigan is another conversation entirely, but hey, good luck to him!

 

[scorsone]

The link about the Forester Diesel states that towing figures are up 2000lbs with just the addition of the Diesel. That says a lot about the usefulness of Diesel engines.

Imagine if the Element got a Diesel. I don't see why we couldn't easily gain another 1500lbs tow rating.

I have really liked the new Forester and this is a huge plus in my book. I am eager to see what comes of the new power plant.

Oh, yeah!!! I almost forgot, manual transmission only at this point!!!!

 

[Dom.five]

Imagine if the Element got a Diesel. I don't see why we couldn't easily gain another 1500lbs tow rating.

Oh, yeah!!! I almost forgot, manual transmission only at this point!!!!

The limiting factor for the Element would be the stopping power, not the pulling power.

Also the currant suspension system would need some upgrades to support the additional towing capacity.

In any mechanical system, a single change of one component, can cause the domino effect. Primarily do to the original design, ( light passenger car ) parameters of other components within the system will need to be changed to accomplish the desired end result.

Dom

 

[Herc130]

Yes when I did the math, I came to the same conclusion.

However, $ ARE NOT THE ONLY CONSIDERATION here!

Horse power and torque also figure into the equation. They ( diesel engines ) provide a more responsive feel as well as improved pulling power. Thus enhancing the drive-ability, utility, and longevity of the vehicle. It does one more thing, less important to me, Improves resale value! I usually keep a car so long, the junkies don't want it! :-D

Dom

I have driven a few miles on disel cars, but never owned one, so no real experience. I don't think diesels last longer just because they make their power at lower RPM, but because of the people likely to drive it. Every car advertise "highway miles" . Oh yeah, I put 100,000 miles on it, but it was all "highway miles", no worries .

I think with most diesels, that's actually true. I think most people get diesels to commute or for commercial transport. I think most diesel owners are not red-lining their motors. I think most diesels owners consciously make the choice for diesels, probably actively take care of their diesels and are the kinda owners that make whatever they own....look good.

I think even a gas motor can get to 500k with little trouble if you drive within the engineered limits. I have friends with big turbo diesel cummins truck that didn't make it to 100k miles and I have friends with gas toyotas that were over 300k on the same drive train. I myself had a 200k+ mile gas powered VW.

Honestly, I think proper regular preventitive maintinence, driving behavior and "highway miles" has more to do with weather a car gets to 500k, be it diesel or gas. Granted, there are more diesels out there that are 500k+, but those are probably all commercial vehicles, highway driven and regularly serviced by real mechanics. Things that make it so you need a new long block at low miles probably has to do with abuse and neglect of the motor.


I am not sure a TDI is more responsive then gas. Pretty sure a 0-60 time for a gas will far exceed an equivilant TDI, lets not even talk top speed. However, I don't care. I drive around the speed limit, I accelorate smoothly with more concern to fuel then anything else. A better tow capcity would be great. Yeah, the diesels are more inline with what I want and I'd opt for it, I just wanted to point out that for the money, gas doesn't compare poorly and has the potential to last a long time too.

 

[scorsone]

The limiting factor for the Element would be the stopping power, not the pulling power.

Also the currant suspension system would need some upgrades to support the additional towing capacity.

In any mechanical system, a single change of one component, can cause the domino effect. Primarily do to the original design, ( light passenger car ) parameters of other components within the system will need to be changed to accomplish the desired end result.

Dom

If I remember correctly the general rule of thumb was, braking power is 3x better than engine power in vehicle design. So yes the brakes would be larger in the Diesel version of the vehicle.

Stronger suspension components are not complex.

They are still using the same body for the vehicle. It is relatively easy to produce a better towing E. If Toyota can do it with the Rav-4 v6 and Suby with the Forester Diesel Honda could with the E.

 

[xequar]

I have driven a few miles on disel cars, but never owned one, so no real experience. I don't think diesels last longer just because they make their power at lower RPM, but because of the people likely to drive it. Every car advertise "highway miles" . Oh yeah, I put 100,000 miles on it, but it was all "highway miles", no worries .

I think with most diesels, that's actually true. I think most people get diesels to commute or for commercial transport. I think most diesel owners are not red-lining their motors. I think most diesels owners consciously make the choice for diesels, probably actively take care of their diesels and are the kinda owners that make whatever they own....look good.

I think even a gas motor can get to 500k with little trouble if you drive within the engineered limits. I have friends with big turbo diesel cummins truck that didn't make it to 100k miles and I have friends with gas toyotas that were over 300k on the same drive train. I myself had a 200k+ mile gas powered VW.

Honestly, I think proper regular preventitive maintinence, driving behavior and "highway miles" has more to do with weather a car gets to 500k, be it diesel or gas. Granted, there are more diesels out there that are 500k+, but those are probably all commercial vehicles, highway driven and regularly serviced by real mechanics. Things that make it so you need a new long block at low miles probably has to do with abuse and neglect of the motor.


I am not sure a TDI is more responsive then gas. Pretty sure a 0-60 time for a gas will far exceed an equivilant TDI, lets not even talk top speed. However, I don't care. I drive around the speed limit, I accelorate smoothly with more concern to fuel then anything else. A better tow capcity would be great. Yeah, the diesels are more inline with what I want and I'd opt for it, I just wanted to point out that for the money, gas doesn't compare poorly and has the potential to last a long time too.

Heat. Diesel engines do not get nearly as hot as gasoline engines because of the differences in how a diesel burns its fuel. Because they don't get as hot, and thus don't have to cool down as much, there's less deformities over time. Also, lower temperatures keep the oil intact for longer, meaning better protection. Of course, fewer engine cycles contribute as well, and because a diesel makes much more power at lower RPMs, components actually move less over the same amount of mileage when compared to a gas engine.

 

[Dom.five]

Heat. Diesel engines do not get nearly as hot as gasoline engines because of the differences in how a diesel burns its fuel.

I question that assertion In terms of heat dissipation. It has been my experience that Diesels retain more heat. The fuel has a lower Cetaine number and a higher sulfur content.

Also the grater mass of the typical Diesel engine tends to retain more heat than the more lightly constructed Gas engine.

As the above links prove, the Diesel does burn cooler. However, I believe that the engine retains more residual heat than does the gas equivalent.

Dom

 

[Herc130]

Yeah, didn't really agree with the heat issues. Most times I see friends needing engine repairs beyond the bolt on parts is because they blew a head gasket or it's burning oil because of the rings or valve seals, low compression etc. not because they get so hot they deform. If engines could deform from normal heating and cooling, then we'd have problems, but I am no mechanic. I just take parts off and put parts on.



Someone pointed out to me that diesel fuel itself is like a lubercant, so many internal parts will last longer. You don't have spark plugs, no ignition system..the fuel just explodes from compression alone. Usually the block itself is thicker and more heavy duty then gas blocks....why, not sure.

 

[MikeQBF]

... Usually the block itself is thicker and more heavy duty then gas blocks....why, not sure.

Because the compression forces that make diesel work are easily double that of a gasoline engine.