[chrisell]

This is sticky topic from a trimmed down version of a long and rambling thread about TPMS in winter wheels.

Initially I asked a three-part question:

Part the first:
Is it worth the hassle of getting a second set of TPMS sensors for my winter wheels and getting the car reprogrammed to see them? I can live with the light on the dash for three months but if that light means I can't turn off the VSA, that's a different problem entirely.

Part the second:
Where do you get Honda TPMS sensors? H&A don't seem to do them (which is odd because I could swear they did at one point). According to hondatpms.com I need TRW 42753-SNA-A83 for my 2009 Element. eBay is awash with "deals" but they all seem a bit dodgy.

Part the third:
Because none of the previous topics seem to agree - can a national chain reprogram my ECU to the new sensors or not? I don't want to pay dealer prices if I don't have to but equally I don't want to go to a chain and have them give me some **** and bull story about needing a "special" tool that they either don't have, or want to charge me extra for.

This was the ultimate resolution:

First - yes - you do need working TPMS sensors in order to be able to disable the VSA / Traction Control.

So I took my winter wheels and tyres down to my local Les Schwab and they fitted the sensors and rebalanced the wheels for me.

Here's the final cost :

4x sensors: $118.32 inc.shipping from Hondapartsnow

4x washers and 4x nuts, which I forgot and had to buy locally: $18.65

Taking my wheels to have the sensors fitted: $84.41

Re-learn when I put the winter wheels on - $22.39 all-in for all four wheels

(Not relying on a Honda dealer - priceless )

Now this assumes you have a second set of wheels and tyres and that you're willing to do the changeover yourself (and frankly why wouldn't you?).

$23 twice a year for the re-learn is a complete no-brainer too. The guy told me that most big-name wheel fitting places can do Honda TPMS without any trouble. He said the biggest problems were normally Toymotor - they can't do those systems and have to take them to dealers to get them re-learned.

So there you go - if you end up with winter wheels, the up-front cost of getting the sensors in isn't too bad, and the re-learn from a non-Honda dealer is el cheapo.

Plus it means you don't have the hassle of continually changing tyres on the same rims with all the issues that involves. (constant dinging of your rims and constant rebalancing).

Note: I used Les Schwab because of prior experience but for the sake of nerdy forum completeness, I called Big O Tires and Discount Tire Center too. Their re-learn costs were about $40 all-in and the cost just to fit the sensors in the winter wheels was $94 and $89 respectively in my area - so not a giant difference.

 

[chrisell]

That's what I've got - the old 16 inchers off my old Element EX but with winter tyres on them. The stock TPMS units fitted the smaller wheel without problem. The re-learn is irrespective of the wheels - it's simply a case of reading the RFID code from the four sensors then reprogramming the ECU via the OBD2 port to see those four codes.

 

[chrisell]

I thought it was time for a followup on this, as I've completed the entire process. I put my winter wheels on this weekend and went back to the local tyre place and it turned out they actually could NOT relearn the sensors.
Here's what I discovered:

Up until the 2008 model year, Honda sensors had a "discoverable" mode in them - sort of like a bluetooth headset. To get a car to see new sensors, each one has to be set in "discoverable" mode by a handheld analog RF scanner. Once in that mode, you drive the car up to 20mph and it relearns the sensors on its own. At that point, the wheel sensors go back into transmit-only mode.

From 2009 onwards, Honda changed to a simpler sensor because of unreliability with the discover mode. The new ones are the ones where you need a digital scanner, not an analog one. The digital scanner pulls the four sensor codes from the TPMS modules and is then plugged in to the OBD2 port to blast the codes into the onboard computer. Not many aftermarket tyre places can do this because the Honda equipment is pricey and they don't get the volume of work needed to recover the initial cost of the scanner.

So in the end I had to get my four new sensors relearned by the local dealer. It took them 30 minutes from checking the car in to getting it back to me (and it was washed and all the fluids had been topped off for free). It cost me $52 which isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things.

However I also learned a couple of other important things in the process:

1. It takes about 10 miles or 30 minutes of driving before the onboard computer turns the TPMS light on. ie. for the first little bit after you fit the other wheels, the system is in WTF? mode and eventually it gives up and turns the light on. Similarly, if you change back to your normal wheels, it takes about the same amount of time for the TPMS light to go out.

2. You actually can disable the traction control when the TPMS system is offline. This means that if you can live with the TPMS light on the dash for 4 months over winter, you really don't need sensors in your winter wheels at all.

3. The idea about keeping the sensors in your glovebox, or keeping your summer wheels in the back of your car is flawed. The wheels need to be turning for the sensors to transmit. They're normally in sleep mode, but have a mercury centrifugal switch in them which wakes them up once the wheels are spinning.

So there you go - everything you need to know about TPMS in winter / aftermarket wheels.

 

[chrisell]

NOT TRUE! I can personally guarantee you this in an '07 or '08. If they changed something in the '09+ models you should specify.

See the post two above where I rectified this, and not in caps either:

2. You actually can disable the traction control when the TPMS system is offline. This means that if you can live with the TPMS light on the dash for 4 months over winter, you really don't need sensors in your winter wheels at all.

 

[chrisell]

Has anyone run into the case where ye olde tyre shoppe couldn't reset your TPMS sensors?

the guy told me he did it by the book, tried it 6 or 7 times and pulled his hair out trying to get the system to work.

as he said: i got the codes from your sensors... i stored them in my tool... i plugged it into the vehicle... it accepted them... and the light is still blinking.

anyone? i didn't buy sensors to not have them work!

I suspect your tyre place doesn't have the "official" Honda tool for doing this and it seems the newer Honda systems are particularly picky about this.

From my updated post:
Up until the 2008 model year, Honda sensors had a "discoverable" mode in them - sort of like a bluetooth headset. To get a car to see new sensors, each one has to be set in "discoverable" mode by a handheld analog RF scanner. Once in that mode, you drive the car up to 20mph and it relearns the sensors on its own. At that point, the wheel sensors go back into transmit-only mode.

From 2009 onwards, Honda changed to a simpler sensor because of unreliability with the discover mode. The new ones are the ones where you need a digital scanner, not an analog one. The digital scanner pulls the four sensor codes from the TPMS modules and is then plugged in to the OBD2 port to blast the codes into the onboard computer. Not many aftermarket tyre places can do this because the Honda equipment is pricey and they don't get the volume of work needed to recover the initial cost of the scanner.

 

[chrisell]

I have a 07' without the sensors and I just have the light, my vsa works fine, turns on and off. Imo, they are not needed on the 07 and 08's, do not know about the 09 up E's.

Correct - not needed for the VSA to be able to be de-activated. If you can live with the light on the dash for 5 months of the year, do it.

 

[chrisell]

why do you want to turn off the vsa during winter? it really helps me when it is snowy, and the roads are icey. this is the time for stability assist.:?

You'll think differently after it's put you in the way of a potential accident. Because it's a "dumb" system that simply cuts power, you can get into situations where you need power and have none. For example - coming out of a parking lot over an ice-filled gutter. If you're a 2WD Element with VSA, it will detect both wheels spinning and cut the power just as you nose out into traffic. In other words : the point when you need to be able to pull out smartly and merge, you have no drive.
That's why you turn VSA off in snow and ice.