[Blue Devil]

Just for grins yesterday I disconnected the stock resonator and let it pull air directly through the hole in the air box and WOW, the throttle response is SO much better. I know that there may be a bit more heat soak as a consequence, but it makes the car so much better to drive its crazy. I'm gonna look at modifying things further this weekend to see what add'l imporvement I can get (maybe ghetto CAI) but I thought I'd just post to say how amazed I am at the improved throttle response just from removing the resonator from the system.

 

[Nasty Toaster]

yeah, it is like that with most cars. get a cone filter and if you can get some duct or PVC hose and make a "ram air" mod. I did it on my Mazda MX6 V6, works great. mine is an "S" shape, facing the front of the car so when I move forward, air is forced into the opening and directed right to my air filter. Hopefully you can picture that.

 

[gibroni]

yeah, it is like that with most cars. get a cone filter and if you can get some duct or PVC hose and make a "ram air" mod. I did it on my Mazda MX6 V6, works great. mine is an "S" shape, facing the front of the car so when I move forward, air is forced into the opening and directed right to my air filter. Hopefully you can picture that.

I can't picture that. Can you post photos or at least an illustration? ;-)

 

[FastEddieB]

Did you guys run any before/after performance tests?

Very often the change of sound (plus placebo effect) can make a car seem faster when its not.

 

[Dom.five]

Did you guys run any before/after performance tests?

Very often the change of sound (plus placebo effect) can make a car seem faster when its not.

That's often the case! There have been times when I thought the engine was making more power without the Air cleaner on it. Only to find that on the Dyno run's the actual difference was less than ONE horsepower!

It's amazing how much "sound" can change your perception.

Dom

 

[Blue Devil]

I'm making no claim whatsoever of added power. I'd bet the system as I have it now actually loses power (b/c its pulling hotter air). I just like the improved throttle response (i.e. if you step on the gas, how quickly does the engine react to that given throttle input). Makes rev matching on downshifts a lot easier. Throttle response and power gains are two seperate things. I doubt this makes any power. Even my ghetto CAI idea would gain any appreciable power. The goal is to attain throttle reponse like it is now with a very slight power gain.

 

[OUZO Power]

If anything you lost low end torque.

 

[Dom.five]

If anything you lost low end torque.

Agreed !!

Shorter intakes reduce available Torque. That is one of the laws of physics that does not change. It's been proven several times by many people on and off the Dyno.

Torque is what translates into improved throttle response. Horsepower has nothing to do with it.

Dom

 

[Blue Devil]

Agreed !!

Shorter intakes reduce available Torque. That is one of the laws of physics that does not change. It's been proven several times by many people on and off the Dyno.

Torque is what translates into improved throttle response. Horsepower has nothing to do with it.

Dom

I disagree with a lot of things in this statement. I'm not gonna get into a big argument with you about it, but my experience and knowledge tells me this:

Shorter intake runners on the intake manifold reduce torque (which is probably what you are thinking about). A shorter intake can go either way, its really air velocity that matters to low end torque, so diameter of the intake is more important than length.

Shorter intakes translate into improved throttle response. Throttle response is directly proportional to intake volume. Torque has nothing to do with throttle response. I'm not sure if you guys are understanding what I'm talking about when I say throttle response. I'm basically saying that for a given "blip" of the throttle, the engine responds more quickly. I'm not denying that I likely lost low end torque with this setup due to the hotter air and removing the restriction in the resonator (which helps keep air velocity up and thus helps torque).

 

[Dom.five]

I understand why one would disagree with my statement.

I have no intentions of starting an argument over such a small thing.

All I know has come from years of racing, and many years of Dyno tuning race cars.

There are some interesting facts located Here about the engineering of tuned intake systems. That's what our Elements have.

There is also some interesting conversation on Honda's design, on another forum I frequent. You may find this to be interesting also.

Understand that Honda uses the tubing in front of the throttle body as an integrated component in the intake system. That includes the resonator box. It was designed using a complex set of computer generated scenarios, then dyno tested.


Dom

 

[Blue Devil]

All those articles referenced intake manifold runner length more than intake tube length. I understand that it can have an effect on resonance characteristics, but the effect is slim to none, especially when you've got a plenum (a large capacitance) between the intake tube and intake runners like we do. The honda-tech article was looking at an ITB setup, which is totally different. On ITB setups, the intake section on the other side of the TB matters.

Most OEM's tune their intakes based with more than just peak performance in mind. In the case of the E, the stock resonators primary function is to reduce NOISE, not to enhance intake resonance characteristics. They clearly didn't tune for peak performance only based on the improvements other intakes have shown on the E.

That said, I know I'm probably losing torque from just hacking the resonator out of the system, especially since the portion thats left isn't particularly smooth flowing either, thats not up for debate here. The throttle repsonse is DEFINITELY better though, b/c the intake volume is no reduced so much. Really, low end torque and throttle response are a little bit of a give and take. I'm gonna work on fabbing something up this weekend that is a good compromise between throttle response and torque that will hopefully draw cooler air as well (which is a win win other than hydrolock risk). Basically something to try and mimi the Injen/AEM but maybe a little shorter (trade off a little low end to get better throttle response and reduce hydrolock risk).

IMO, the decrease in torque from shorter intake tube length is actually pretty small though. Most SRI's tend to break even on power, which to me shows that the restriction in the stock resonator is indeed there, considering that a typical SRI pulls MUCH hotter air than a stock intake.

 

[fredmertz]

Time for the stopwatch

Its the only true test of a mod. Dyno may say you have more hp or torque but the mod maybe slower. Peak numbers on nice but its the total area under the curve and the shape of the torque and hp curves that matter. On way to tell
would be on a road course or auto x course. Resonator installed and resonator removed. Same holds true with any other mod.

Many mods are crap especially to the intake. i have let to see proof on a stopwatch that a K and N filter makes an real difference. Same with most CAIs
on a warm engine.

One must remember that increased noise and vibration often make a car feel faster.

Unless you have put a watch on this mod your claims are as valid as a teenage boys on a monday morning in the locker room.

I have spent way too much time at the track tell the engine builder his latest mods are worthless since the car is slower.

Notice i said road course or Auto X course. Zero to 60mph or to 100mph and the quarter mile don't tell the whole story.

Fred

 

[Blue Devil]

hehe, you're getting pretty serious about this huh?

I think whats lost in all this discussion is that we're talking about an element, not a race car. Who autocrosses or road races their element anyways? For me, the 3 and the mini are my autocross cars, and they are a heck of a lot better at it. I love my box, don't get me wrong, its a great dog car and fun for cruising and camping.

The biggest improvement to me is a fairly unquantifiable "throttle response". The car seems easier to rev match, seems to respond quicker. This is what matters more to me for this car.

Powerwise, its not a huge difference, even a 5 hp difference (probably way more than we'll see with an intake) up or down would be hard to notice from the seat of the pants.

If it just makes the car "feel" or "sound" faster, so be it, I'm not racing it, I'm driving it to enjoy it, and I enjoy it more when the throttle response is improved. I happen to think based on the theory I know from my experiences that I can attain this with a simple, cheap design and get the best of both worlds. I'll update this thread once I get my custom intake put together.

 

[Dom.five]

Who autocrosses or road races their element anyways?

We do have a few people that do! There are threads posted with some impressive results!

Yes I have had my E, and my wifes E out on the road coarse !!

It would not be my first choice as a race car, but it ain't bad.

Now this one did Well also !



Dom

 

[fredmertz]

You are missing the point. Your claims about increased throttle response are garbage unless you can prove it. Auto x or road course is the only way to do this. Unless you use a stopwatch your claims are as bad as Letterman's jokes.
0-60 times will not support your claims hoss.


Back in the late 70's a bud of mine had a 70 Midget. With all the noises it met you would have thought it was fast. He claimed at the time his Spridget could beat my stock Rabbit. I couldn't on either a road course or auto X course.

Your other option which is more expensive is a flow bench to test before and after your mod.

An increase in noise leads to lots of BS claims.

Fred 70 2002 w/BMW F2 2l 16v engine Dual Webers and 265+hp my fun car.
Sounds fast and is very quick, a DBS, 08 M3, Catheram Super 7 BMW powered, 93 Defender 110, a few Silverados, a Range Rover(gf's), a Porsche tractor, and M6 vert(gf's). And various John Deeres

 

[Basset Box]

You are missing the point. Your claims about increased throttle response are garbage unless you can prove it. Auto x or road course is the only way to do this. Unless you use a stopwatch your claims are as bad as Letterman's jokes.
0-60 times will not support your claims hoss.


Back in the late 70's a bud of mine had a 70 Midget. With all the noises it met you would have thought it was fast. He claimed at the time his Spridget could beat my stock Rabbit. I couldn't on either a road course or auto X course.

Your other option which is more expensive is a flow bench to test before and after your mod.

An increase in noise leads to lots of BS claims.

Fred 70 2002 w/BMW F2 2l 16v engine Dual Webers and 265+hp my fun car.
Sounds fast and is very quick, a DBS, 08 M3, Catheram Super 7 BMW powered, 93 Defender 110, a few Silverados, a Range Rover(gf's), a Porsche tractor, and M6 vert(gf's). And various John Deeres

Sorry to jump in on this discussion but when testing a vehicle don't you want to control the variables like in any scientific experiment? Removing the human element is the best way to do that and I think the unreliability of a driver can eliminate the accuracy of the test. I only think that is the case on such a small MOD like this. I would agree with you if we were talking about a considerably better braking system or adding a turbo but for something as small as what BlueDevil is describing I think it would be hard to isolate any improvement/loss and attribute it to his intake, instead of his potentially varying driving habits.

I have no experience racing, dynoing, or really anything car related. If intake length is such a huge reason for torque, why don't race cars (or any car) have realllllly long intakes. Like I said, I am ignorant on the topic, just a few questions.

 

[Blue Devil]

You are missing the point. Your claims about increased throttle response are garbage unless you can prove it. Auto x or road course is the only way to do this. Unless you use a stopwatch your claims are as bad as Letterman's jokes.
0-60 times will not support your claims hoss.

OK "hoss", I get your point, I'm just saying that I don't care if I'm wrong and I don't feel the need to prove it to you.

Please stop crapping up my thread. If you think its BS, thats fine, I think we've all gotten that by now. Quit grandstanding.

If this were a car I was going to race, then I might care, but its not, so I don't. I like it modified as it is, and thats what matters. I don't care if you think my claims are bogus. You're entitled to that opinion. They may be.

What I know about intake design (I'm not gonna get into a credentials battle with you, but I do know a fair bit) tells me I'm improving things, and my (admittedly imprecise) butt dyno back that claim up. I'll stick to autocrossing my Mazda3 cuz that makes a lot more sense than racing the E (nice lotus btw Dom).


To update. . . I did install my own replacement for the stock airbox this weekend. I basically took the stock airbox out, left the stock rubber elbow that all the sensors attatch in place. Basically, stock airbox has been repalced by a 22 degree bend piece of tubing thats about 7" long with an AEM dryflow filter on the end and an ebay heatshield oriented to attempt to block air from being pulled from behind the exhaust manifold. Total cost, around $60. I'll try and take pictures next weekend. Results so far are that both me and my wife like it a lot.

Throttle response is improved by .1 seconds (+/- .2 second measurement error)
0-60 times are improved by .3 seconds (+/- .5 seconds measurement error)
HP is improved by 6 hp (+/- 10 hp measurement error)

 

[sundog925]

Sorry to be a newbie at mods, but why do people mod the CAI and such? I don't see the need if it's included in the car originally? Someone needs to educate me on these matters.

 

[Urban Assault]

I put in a yellow top optima, and there for had to yank the 2nd air box to make room. I just went to the part store and bought ducting for a carb. style air filter in the size I needed, ducted it from the air filter box down into the bumper, and bam, instant ghetto cold air intake, as a product of trying to make room.

 

[Blue Devil]

Sorry to be a newbie at mods, but why do people mod the CAI and such? I don't see the need if it's included in the car originally? Someone needs to educate me on these matters.

Increased power, better throttle response, nice sound (or noise, depending on your point of view).