You raise good points. I was also holding out for SABs. This should not affect your deal at all, though, other than the extra $250 they cost. I had three dealers tied to x over invoice and they didn't try to upcharge me for SABs, they just said a car like this would be harder to get, which is true.

That said, I signed my deal yesterday on an SOP EX AWD 5speed. Sans SABs. I figure this is one safe car anyway, and if I change my mind in the next two weeks, I can also get one with SABs, it will just take longer. On seat covers, ehh, these seats are so hardy and durable, I can't imagine a need for anything other than cosmetic seat covers.

Fear not on the problem fixes -- check the TSB section on this site and the other E sites -- those problems ARE fixed. Just look at the production models the TSBs effect -- that means the models AFTER those have the problem fixed already. This does require a little homework on the VIN of the car you buy to ensure it has a production number (the last five digits) beyond the TSBs. But as the E is apparently moving well, this should be moot.

Good luck with your purchase, I'm sure you'll be quite happy.

Best,
Steve

 

I really thought hard about waiting on the SAB but decided to go without it. I knew the E had anti-lock brakes and was really safe cause it's a HONDA I know you can't avoid accidents but if you drive safely and watch the road, you should do just fine.

My opinion :wink:

 

JMHO -

Get the side airbags.

It's a wild woolly world of drunk, reckless, stupid or cell-phone jabbering drivers out there. I pray you'll never need them, but a little extra protection means a little more peace of mind, at a minimum, and perhaps your life, or that of a passenger, in a worst-case scenario.

I have no doubt that my little Lucy is going to be one tough girl in protecting me and all who ride with me, but -- this just gives her a little extra help.

 

If you can handle the wait I recommend getting the Side Air Bags.. You'll have so many rubber neckers recklously checking out your Element while your going down the high way you might need them ( hopefull not... )

 

You all realize the side airbags are not the curtain style that would actually be beneficial, these are are just side body protection (or in some cases might cause more damage then good).

By wearing a seatbelt you are covered on those side impacts, and so on, if you have a side balloon it will not protect you any more against a car coming at the side of your car.

You also have the front airbag which will help with the common accidents, and reduce the probability of smashing your face or whip lash (to a degree).

If they offered the side curtain airbags, I would say yeah wait, as I would have too.. but the ones popping from the side of your seat are not worth the wait or bother.

I think the main rubber necking season has come to past, the E has been seen, it is not the new anymore to the common people... so they will not be gawking like they did day one.. two and three. We are closing in on the next year models before long.

Another concern i have is the location the air bag comes from, pressing up on the seat belt.. this is one of the areas I see more harm then good. I don't think this side air bag is worth it.

Again these side air bags will not be that worth the wait.. if they are cool, yeah, wonderful.. but I would not bet on that.

Plus you can not use the seat covers with the side air bag models.

 

I don't thing they would even bother making them if they did no good. There is so much testing and engineering that goes into creating somthing like the Side Impact Airbag,, there is a reason for it.. It is safer. They wouldn't blow the Huge dollars it takes to put these into vehicles if it wasn't for a reason of making the vehicle\\occupant safer. Insurance companies no the benefits as well giving you a discount if you have them..

 

Though I don't have side airbags in My GalaGreenBullPup, I just received
and installed the WORLD'S BEST sheepskin seat covers that are DESIGNED
JUST FOR AUTOS WITH SIDE AIRBAGS...

I have Honda's optional 'neoprene' seat covers installed over the stock E
seats, but when I saw the features on the sheepskin covers made by
New Zealand Austrlian Companies I ordered a set straight away.

As I anticipated they would, the new 'skins fit perfectly under the Honda
optional covers...BTW, since my Honda protective covers have 5 months
and 5,000 miles' use on them, they've stretched enough to accomodate the
new WOOLIES.

These woolskins can be eyeballed at: wwwmisssideless.com
Inquiries: 949.492.5174 - Orders: 888.777.3301

Even though I'm a 6-footer and tho' I drive with the seat dialed to max
height, I like the extra elevation to better see the roadway and all its
potential hazards. Also, my old and aching spine and constant sciatic
'burning' now have the extra CUSHIONING provided by these shamelessly
exquisite WOOL COMFORT BLANKETS...

BUT, THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR BUGGIES WITH SIDE AIRBAGS.

Cheers, tblask San Francisco GalaGreenBullPup beepbeep

 

That is awesome you found some super covers that accomodate the side airbags.. good deal.. sounds like you are happy!

RE: the testing etc.. think of all the safety changes over the years, and when a new item has been introduced they are typically never or far from perfect, and asl years pass they fine toon it.. just because it is labeled as a "safety feature" does not guarentee it is a safe feature. Nor does it guarentee it is perfect or free from flaws.. Go back to the intro days of the front air bags, go further back to the variety of shoulder belts and that nightmare of the door mounted automatic seat belt. Just because it is offered, available etc does not mean it is worth it.

I would go for the curtain style, overall i would be thrilled beyond wonder if they would stop safe guarding EVERYTHING so darn much.. but alas they do, and thankfully for the meanwhile not all vehicles are stuck with these side air bags.

Good luck..

 

TBlask --

Thanks for sharing that link. One of my friends swears by his sheepskin seat cover - summer (and I mean Texas summer!) and winter - as his best ever investment for anything automotive, period.

So now I'm thinking - sheepies! It's excellent that they're cushy for the tushy, but I'm thinking of how nice it is to have something natural, not synthetic , next to one's skin or close to it.

Of course, that takes away the spill-proof seat component - but I could still spill with impunity on the floor!

Something to think about. Thanks for sharing!

Kim

 

Side impact airbags (such as those on the element) have shown stroong evidence contributing to increased torsional whiplash - that kind of whiplash occurring on an axis of rotation parallel to your body and in circular degrees.

It goes something like this:

in a side impact, the driver's right shoulder is likely to separate from the seat, because the left shoulder is caught by the seatbelt. This effect is compounded by the SRS tensioner.

The head also moves from right to left, concurrent with the body motion.

The side impact airbag deployes, which does so from the back of the seat, forward and to the left - into the encroaching driver.

This interruption causes a torsional whiplash from bottom left to top right (looking up and to the right at finish).

There is strong evidence (Dr. Douglas Chute, Drexel University) showing a characteristic pattern of neuropsychological and physiological failure, with the most common effect being a reduction or loss of one's sense of smell.

That being said, I have side impact airbags on my Element (purchased yesterday!)

I will be getting an "X" crossover seatbelt over the right shoulder as well, which will completely rectify this problem.

I recommend you do the same!

I will, however, still have to cut the sides off of my neoprene covers!

Beats missing out on the lady's Chanel No. 5

 

look what happened to passenger side airbags. Just when you thought you were safer, your kids got delegated to the rear seats. That could happen to side-airbags. They'll do a study saying in a not so severe side impact (more common then the terminator test we all know and love) they're determine that SAB will cause more injury. I'm not saying not to wait, but personally I want to see more time for engineers to improve this new technology.

This topic has been so fatalistic. It's time to motor like we've always done since Henry Honda, sorry - Henry Ford.

:wink:

 

The side airbag is deploying away from the driver or passenger. The driver's or passenger's airbags are deploying toward the driver or passenger.

So explain to me how the situations are even remotely comparable.

Torsional injury? Oh please. I've probably gotten more torsion skiing, horseback riding or on a roller coaster ride.

 

My previous post said passenger side airbags. It suppose to say passenger front airbag. That was (is) an engineering with many flaws still yet to be worked out. The problem is when they redesign to say inflate at different rates based on the crash, everyone who already has older version is stuck with a problem. (ie. delegating kids to back seats)

Question? Once SRS sideairbags are available are they going to be on every E?

 

SRS airbags are available. They are an option. The cost is $250.

I also still have this question, based upon my very rudimentary knowledge of physics:

Side airbags deploy AWAY from the person.
Front airbags deploy TOWARD the person.

Therefore, I do not understand why the "dangers" are even remotely comparable.

Also, IMHO, a kid is just plain safer in the backseat.

 

Better wait for the test results instead ASsumming that side air bags will do better. That may be the case, but according to the testing agencies - it's no guarantee. I would think the unusual design of the element brings even more variable into the equation.

 

Again, let me try to make myself clear here.

Front airbags were deemed to be "dangerous" in their first generation because they were too forcefully exploding into the faces and chests of the people they were protecting.

(Note that most front airbag fatalities occurred while the person was NOT also wearing a seatbelt).

So since nothing is contacting the body of the person protected by the side airbag, since they inflate AWAY from the person,

tell me what the danger is.

I'm not making assumptions. I'm looking for someone to state the physics, mechanics or operations of this. That's all.

 

While I have yet to purchase an Element (and the crash tests had little factor in my hesitation) it should be pointed out that the airbags are of little value in protecton against cabin penetration. The inference is the protection they MIGHT afford with regard to head injuries in reaction to a side impact collision.
The pillar-less design of the doors, while claimed to be as safe as a conventional array, is the culprit here. It remains to be seen whether this "press" hurts the vehicle in any manner in the marketplace. It is certainly fodder for the competition. Honda must have had countless sleepless nights since the crash test contemplating "damage control" (absolutely no pun intended). In all candor, a decision must be reached on how to effectively demonstrate that the door design does not constitute a threat to occupant safety, and in short order. If internal testing to the same standard that was utilized last week does not convince Honda that A) The design is sound as it stands, or B) A fix can be enabled that does not alter the strived for concept of the vehicle, it may have a shorter market presence than the Civic Del Sol.
I hope that this is not the case, as the vehicle is perfect for what myself and others that I know require in basic city transportation (plus shorter, out of town excursions).

 

[quote:d6668244fa="Coyotes"].
The pillar-less design of the doors, while claimed to be as safe as a conventional array, is the culprit here. [/quote:d6668244fa]

Then explain why the crash tests on cars with door pillars were as bad or worse than the Element.

Please don't take my reply here as hostile, but unless you're an automotive engineer, you cannot make the above statement with any authority. The IIHS tests gave a score, a score without any explanation as to how it was created from various sub-scores, for the Element. The IIHS test in no way specified the pillarless door design as the problem area for the Element. Unless you have based your statements in your post based upon detailed examination of the underlying data of the IIHS score, data unavailable on the website, and possibly unavailable to the public as proprietary information, then your statement is as much a guess as anything else.

I don't mean to shoot you down, but I see a ton of people making pronouncements around here, and although everyone's entitled to an opinion, an opinion is not the same as fact.

This is sure to bring more insane accusations of "You're defensive! You're an ostritch with her head in the sand!" from the Peanut Gallery but I'll repeat for the record: they didn't test an Element with side airbags which is what I have. And all I want are the facts.

 

Directly from the IIHS website, regarding the Element:

STRUCTURE/SAFETY CAGE: The occupant compartment intrusion measurements were acceptable.

________________________________________________________

Doesn't sound to this layman like an indictment of the door design.

It's all very confusing, the degree of intrusion into the cabin was acceptable, but that very degree of intrusion caused injuries severe enough for a poor rating. As the Hellcat said, unless you're an engineer with access to the details of the test parameters, you're doing some guessing and making some generalizations. All we can do is make note of the published results, and consider them as just one factor in making our car buying decision. Best of luck to all in whetever decision they make.

 

Making a car safer in a side impact crash is important. But so is making a car that will not cause injury in a side impact. The Kill rate on a Chevy Tahoe is 200 times higher then the kill rate of a civic. (Kill rate means the number of deaths caused by the vehicle.) With smaller cars and bigger suvs on the roads today problems are bound to occur. The front bumpers of some suvs are at eye level of someone in a civic. You can't make window glass anymore crash resistant. A suv can plow into a civic and leave the door intact while taking out the window and roof killing the driver. Side impact resistance needs to improve but also a little common sense on the part of the manufactures as to what vehicle are sharing the road and how the interact together.

 

I agree with Kim; the first thing that entered my mind after reading Coyotes post is that the other vehicles fared as bad or worse than the E -- no, it is not the side pillars or lack thereof -- it is simply the fact that a large SUV hitting ANY vehicle (with the possible exception of another large SUV) at speed will cause incredible damage. That said, I do agree with the fact that SABs will give you a somewhat safer accident -- but at anything over 45 mph from the side from a Ford Subdivision, er, Expedition, my layman's guess is that you are NOT sitting pretty, with or without SABs...

Steve

 

well, i was in a pretty major accident today and I can tell u that i will definitely be getting the side air bags now. me - small geo prizm. her - ford explorer. she rammed me going thru an intersection. i've ended up with a broken forearm but overall feel VERY fortunate to be walking. she looked to be OK. thank god for airbags. i prefer smaller, fuel efficient cars, but it's just not worth the risk when everyone else has an suv. believe me when i tell you that i am a very defensive driver and some things are unavoidable. get what you can to prevent injury - no matter what the xtra cost.

 

Hellcat said:
"I don't mean to shoot you down, but I see a ton of people making pronouncements around here, and although everyone's entitled to an opinion, an opinion is not the same as fact."

Honda, from their own website cites: "Swing open the Element's doors, and you'll notice something different— unobstructed space. That's because the Element was designed without conventional b-pillars.
But once you close the reinforced side cargo doors, strong vertical beams are formed as the Element's reinforced frame, side sills and roof come together. What you're left with is a unique, but seriously tough passenger compartment. Inside, more conventional safety features such as dual-stage front airbags (SRS) and 3-point seat belts help keep everyone safe and secure. With all this, the Element is expected to attain the highest rank for front- and side-impact protection in upcoming tests."

Again, it matters not to me what the results of the test were...the vehicle still has a high desirability factor for me. However, it gives pause for concern should something in 2004, meeting the same criteria, fare better in this regard.
All the engineering in the world, on occaision, cannot negate the fact that there will be an incident that disproves it. The law of averages must prevail in order for life to move on, with the best case scenario adjudged to dominate decision making.

No doubt Honda estimated that the lack of a "B" pillar might give rise to concern about the vehicle vitality in a side impact, and ad copy prior to the test addresses such.

No I am not an automotive engineer...I set up very expensive video displays. You do not need to know my expertise and discipline skillset, in order to view a video image and decide for yourself if it looks correct or not.
Analogously, I do not need to meet the requirements of automotive engineer to evaluate what Honda sought to achieve in the design of the Element. Like most modern vehicles, it is a "space frame" design, similar in concept to the "egg". From a myriad of angles, an egg is virtually impenetratable. Yet, in one single instance, it may be beyond vulnerability.
I will likely acquire a 2004 Element when available...but it will remain in the back of my mind as to whether the door design delivers, as engineered, should fate link me up with a side impact.

And for goodness sake...this is a public forum to express opinions and share thoughts on the Honda Elelment. There seems to be many that hang on every syllable, examinging if all that is printed is worthy of admission as sworn testimony in a court of law. Remember, this is the court of public opinion.

 

Coyotes, I, like you, are engaged in examining the Element as a potential new car, and we are both concerned about the results. I am no Honda apologist.

However, the issue is your blanket assertion that "The pillar-less design of the doors, while claimed to be as safe as a conventional array, is the culprit here."

If you have some facts to back up your assertion that the lack of a conventional B pillar is indeed the culprit, please state them. In fact, the side intrusion in the Element was less, not more, than many conventional B pillar designs - including the CR-V. Here are the B-column crush percentages from the IIHS test.

SUBARU FORESTER: 40/39
HYUNDAI SANTA FE: 50
HONDA CR-V: 46
FORD ESCAPE WITH SIDE AIRBAGS: 38
FORD ESCAPE: 37
JEEP WRANGLER: 27
HONDA ELEMENT: 44
SATURN VUE: 45
MITSUBISHI OUTLANDER: 50
LAND ROVER FREELANDER: 50
SUZUKI GRAND VITARA: 52
TOYOTA RAV4: 45

There are too many engineering variables regarding the design of the car that can cause the Element's injury results. In my view, attributing the Element's poor scores to the lack of a conventional B pillar is an uninformed leap.

 

Lucious Hellcat:

Sorry this was so long in coming, last time the computer bluescreened on me and it's taken a while to get back to it. I'll try to be clear in my response.

You make a good point about torsional injuries that occur in various sports, including equestrian and skiing. However you must consider that the masses involved in an automobile accident, as well as the speeds involved in airbag deployment, bear dramatically different physiological effects.

So, you've been struck in your Honda Element, "T-Boned" perpendicular on the drivers side by a crazy person. Here's what happens.

Your car moves to the right. However, you are not attached to your car, so inertia acts upon you, essentially causing a force from your body, into the door, to the left.

The driver moves from right to left, into the door.

As the driver moves, the SRS seatbelt tensioners engage around the left shoulder and waist, decellerating the driver in their approach into the door. However, the right shoulder is not attached, so the driver's body turns toward the door, and they will be striking the door in a facing/diagonal manner.

The side impact airbags deploy. The only way to countermand a force from right to left, is with a force from left to right. The bags deploy from within the driver's side seat at app. elbow level (see owners manual), and canopy forward and to the right.

The side impact airbags strike the driver with a force from left to right.

The driver's body is....hopefully....stopped from going into the door as their left shoulder comes in contact with the airbag. However, the left-to-right force from the airbag also must stop the encroaching right shoulder, which is twisting from back right (against the seat facing forward) to forward left (towards the and facing the door). In doing this, a strong force vector must be generated opposite that circular vector.

A force is applied against a twisting body.

When this happens, again...inertia takes over. Your head is attached to your body by just about the same relative strength that your body is attached to the car. When we're talking about twisting and the speeds involved, that's just about nil. Your head continues to whip to the left against a...hopefully....now stationary body.

If your head does this, and even maybe moves sideways (left ear to your shoulder) you could make it with just some achyness. If the airbag actually contacts your head, or if it pushes your elbow up so that the outside of your left arm pushes against your head, there will now be a force to the right which exceeds the decellerating force on your body.

Your head moves from left to right while your body moves from right to left, or remains stationary.

This torsional velocity has been present in a 'statistically significant'** number of side-impact crashes where the victems received concurrent nerve damage, and a connected loss of olfaction - sense of smell.

Hope that clears the way for you.

You can see how securing the right shoulder with a Y-strap that clicks in above the right shoulder would help.



**statistically significant - refers to an analysis of variance (ANOVA) probability value (P-Val), in comparisons done for side impact with nervous injury, side impact with no nervous injury, and impact (non-side)with and without nervous injury. A conclusion is significant when a P-Val is gleaned that is .05 or less. That is, if your hypothesis is that there might be a connection between side impacts and nerve damage, a P-Val of .05 states that there is a 95% level of confidence that your hypothesis cannot be rejected. That does not prove the connection, it just means that you cannot reject the hypothesis.