[paulj]

The hydraulic circuity is entirely internal to the AWD unit at the front of the rear differential. There are no hoses or wires to this unit.

 

[racerc2000]

over the years has anything changed? as in 07 or so and up when the 5spd auto was added. i was thinking of adding the parts to achieve an elements 4wd in my SC. if the same knowledge of older elements is put forth would i be correct in assuming the tranny is the same unit in both 2wd and 4wd and a transfer case/plate just bolts on and it works? and on another note besides wear issues do i need only certain year parts or are they virtually identical? do we have a list somewhere of the slight changes from year to year... such parts that will not work and such parts that are of better quality over others?

 

[EXwSCnose]

over the years has anything changed? as in 07 or so and up when the 5spd auto was added. i was thinking of adding the parts to achieve an elements 4wd in my SC. if the same knowledge of older elements is put forth would i be correct in assuming the tranny is the same unit in both 2wd and 4wd and a transfer case/plate just bolts on and it works? and on another note besides wear issues do i need only certain year parts or are they virtually identical? do we have a list somewhere of the slight changes from year to year... such parts that will not work and such parts that are of better quality over others?

It is not that simple. From the point of intrusiveness. I had an '07 4WD EX AT, and hung the SC nose on it. I was in the process of installing the Sc center console when I totaled it out. The 4WD SC conversion is a bit more tricky since the suspension components are not the same as the DX / LX / EX. The simplest way to achieve the the 4WD SC look is doing the nose and the interior. Messing with the mechanical components is potentially much more troublesome then swapping out the plastic nose and lights as well as the console...

 

[xzodiackillerx]

dual pump system= front wheels spin and the faster moving first pump spinning with front wheels pushes fluid faster than second pump spinning with rear assy. this causes clutch plates to engage making the rear wheels drive wheels ... that is the system and that is all ..... if you want the rears to engage you can pull the E brake and fool the system into thinking that the fronts are slipping... not the best idea!

 

[nacranym]

or, another strange approach would be to put smaller tires on the front, so that the system thinks the fronts are spinning. of course, this would only work 'til the system overheated and released the drive to the rears. then the cycle would repeat 'til something decided enough was enough and left the game. which could be expensive to the team owner.

 

[EXwSCnose]

or, another strange approach would be to put smaller tires on the front, so that the system thinks the fronts are spinning. of course, this would only work 'til the system overheated and released the drive to the rears. then the cycle would repeat 'til something decided enough was enough and left the game. which could be expensive to the team owner.

Since the system works off pressure differential, there may be a way to insert a bleed or bypass valve, activated by a solenoid controlled from the driver's seat. I would propose this to be a momentary switch as not to cause anything wanting to leave the game, - as described above...

 

[paulj]

S...there may be a way to insert a bleed or bypass valve, ....

Have you looked at the hoses and wires leading to the dual-pump unit? Where do you propose inserting this valve?

 

[EXwSCnose]

Have you looked at the hoses and wires leading to the dual-pump unit? Where do you propose inserting this valve?

Well, that's where it gets a bit tricky. There are no external features. All fluit routings are internal and require a bit more engineering. No I have not made an attempt to look at this problem,,,

 

[Free_man_E]

You might find this .pdf file interesting. Even though it's for the CR-V
the dual clutch system is the same in the E.
http://www.hondaclubstore.com/images/misc/rtawd.pdf

One thing I’d like to see is a limited slip or locking differential mod.
I’ve been in several situations where the AWD system works fine,
but I end up stuck because of one tire in front and one tire in the
rear loosing traction. And all the stupid traction control system
does is back off on the throttle when the computer sees tire slippage.
I end up turning it off sometimes because this negates the usage
of the dual clutch AWD system somewhat.

 

[paulj]

My solution to this right/left traction problem is traction mats. In one snow case, I was able to fit the mats under the rear wheels and back up a bit. I then move the mats to the front of the front wheels and drove to the center of the road. I found, in that case, that the rear wheels are most effective when moving straight. Don't try to turn while getting out of a snow bank.

Supposedly a light touch on the brakes, even just the hand brake (which just acts on the rear wheels) can help. It adds some resistance to the spinning wheel, letting the differential send some torque to the other. I haven't tried it.

 

[desinia]

You might find this .pdf file interesting. Even though it's for the CR-V
the dual clutch system is the same in the E.
http://www.hondaclubstore.com/images/misc/rtawd.pdf

Thank you for this. That's the first explanation I've seen of how the thing works that I can understand.

 

[electronbee]

And... another bump...

The regulated hydraulic pressure at the clutch piston pushes the plates and discs of the clutch together to form a
connection. The engaged clutch then passes driving force from the transfer assembly to the rear wheels,
producing 4WD.

There, that's it. If you look at the PDF linked above, it matches what is in the E manuals that I have in PDF, word for word. Only difference is the font. Also, its is very telling. Basically, our system works like this: we have two oil pumps, one that is connected to the drive from the front and one that is connected to our rear wheels. When there is a pressure differential induced via the front pump, it drives the clutch closed, engaging the rear wheels. The thing to remember here is that the drive shaft from the front is not directly connected to the rear wheels. There is a clutch assembly in front of the front pump that will transfer power back to the rear differential. The whole thing appears to be a self-contained, autonomous unit. There is no ECU control at all.

Thinking out loud here... I can see a way to modify it so you can turn the rears on/off via supplementing the hydraulic pressure with something like a clutch master/slave setup. But, once you manually engage the clutch assembly, you'd want to make sure that nothing leaks back to the pumps. You would have to have check-valves, etc, to control the fluid flow.

It's easier said than done. And, you'd have to have the RWD section to open up and explore first.

 

[electronbee]

So, I did some more research on this... anyone think that a Pilot rear differential assembly would work in an Element? I have been looking at the 2007 Pilot service manual and the electrical diagrams. One could easily hack/modify the rear differential system on the Pilot to control engagement if it were to be mounted. I dunno about anytime of AWD action, though the manual seems to indicate that the VTM-4 system is its own module but it has an F-CAN interface so you would have to interface into the F-CAN system in order for it to work properly. Maybe. Depends on which signals it actually gets from the PCM as the VTM-4 module has its own inputs/outputs in regards to engine speed, TPS, wheel speeds, etc.

Also, the VSA is part of VTM-4. Doesn't the new Elements have VSA, thereby meaning that they are F-CAN as well? So, maybe a rear differential swap from a 2007+ Element will give one the electronically controlled one? I am thinking this is so as VSA needs control of the rear differential to control the wheels. The system in my 2004 can't do that as its strictly a hydraulic coupling system.

 

[paulj]

Vehicle Stability Assist™ (VSA®)[2] helps sense oversteer or understeer in an emergency situation, and then adjusts brake pressure at each wheel and/or reduces engine power to help restore driver control and keep you on course.

http://automobiles.honda.com/element/safety.aspx

As described here, the VSA works with the brakes and throttle. It does not use the rear differential.

The Pilot description adds 'with traction control', which may imply that a right/left torque control in the rear differential is involved.

 

[GeLand]

Lock into 4WD?

Hi guys - Anbody looked into this? I'd like to be able to lock my 2009 Element into full time 4WD, rather than having it shift in and out when I'm headed up an icy/snowy curvy road. I know a few things:

1) the rear diff and control is all hydraulic, no electric pressure sensing is used to engage the 4WD.
2) there is a heat sensor to shut the 4WD off if the rear diff overheats.

It seems to me that adding some hydraulic plumbing to "fool" the rear clutch to be on all the time, and maybe a tranny cooler, that this could be done using a 12V hydraulic solenoid valve.

Any thoughts or input?

Thanks all
GeLand

 

[ramblerdan]

Threads merged. GeLand, see above.

No one has yet managed to do what you propose.

However, the answer to your other question is yes, there is a protection mechanism that disengages the rear drive if the system gets too hot.

 

[GeLand]

Thanks, Rambler. I searched the forum, but this thread didn't show up: must have not used the right keywords. This is exactly what I was looking for, somebody ought to make a kit!
Thanks again
GeLand

 

[Atom]

There is no way of directly activating the AWD; there are no wires or computer to trick. It's the spin of the front wheels that actually engages the clutch that sends power to the rear wheels.

Could you describe some of the situations where you think the Element would perform better if it had this 'full-time 4wd'? How do you manipulate the power, brakes and gearing to over come this 'deficiency'? Assuming, of course, that you are talking from experience.

paulj

Well, here is one. We have a friend that lives up a steepish gravel driveway that is about 300 feet long including switchbacks.

Problem is, by the time the AWD kicks in, I have already started churching the front tires and messing up the smooth driveway.

The extra torque to the back would balance things out and keep my friends driveway from getting rutted and potholed.

Also, we do access backcountry FSR locations and the AWD lacks the balance of power that makes climbing on gravel and packed dirty viable.

So there would definitely be a use for me if there was a way to temporarily engage it.

That being said, it is a Honda Element, not a 4WD offroad. It is designed for commuter roads and highways, not slow crawl or off road situations of any kind.

 

[desinia]

The bottom line is that the Element has no practical way to manually engage the rear wheels before the front wheels start slipping. Somebody had a specially rebuilt E for drifting with a bigger engine and fixed coupling between the front and rear but I'd hardly call that practical for anything except burning up tires. Honda's stand on the drive train was that if you wanted a manual lock, you needed to go up to a higher priced model like the Pilot. In case you're interested, I used to have a Pilot along with the Element and for just about every situation, the Element was a LOT better in bad weather. Go figure, huh?

The new system they use on the CR-V's is electric (I think) but no idea if there's a manual lock on them either. Honda's whole philosophy is that you'll get what they told it was and not a smidgen more.

 

[BigBerz]

I think I will chime in here on the RT4WD system.

There is a way to make it work with a switch. It requires removing the oil and putting an air pump system in place.

This thread will show you all the info required to have your AWD system switch activated.http://honda-tech.com/forums/tech-misc-15/not-another-awd-civic-project-3268963/

Berz out.