[partsbin]

i noticed that when my 51r stock honda battery started to fail my alternator started to make a weird whining sound. after a minute or two it would go away. i figured the alternator was working too hard to try to keep the failing battery charged up every morning. once i put in a fresh 51r, no more sounds from the alternator. it takes much less time to recharge a smaller battery vs a larger one. if you put in too large of a battery, i believe the alternator will be working harder as the battery fails over time. maybe that whining sound i had won't go away within a minute or two with the larger battery. the output of the stock alternator is only so much. i dont know how much but it can't be too much. if the larger battery is drained low that might demand too much from the stock alternator vs a drained 51r.

 

[pihmpdaddi]

i noticed that when my 51r stock honda battery started to fail ...

This sounds more like failing alternator bearings exemplified by a deeply drained battery. Yes a larger battery takes more time to charge, but the alternator only puts out max current it is designed to produce. A larger battery will not induce the alternator to produce more current, it only makes the alternator pull max current for a longer period of time.

A new battery should only require a small charge to restore the starting energy lost, so replacing the battery makes sense. But if you drained that new battery, my guess is you'd still hear those whirring noises until it charged up again. FYI: Don't do this to prove me right or wrong unless you want to take some life out of your new battery.

 

[partsbin]

i don't think battery condition has an effect on alternator bearings. i never said a larger battery will make the alternator produce more current. a larger battery will demand more vs a smaller battery if both are drained to the same voltage. like i said, it takes much less time to charge a smaller battery.

im not against putting in a larger battery. just thought maybe these newer alternators are sensitive. i never had alternators make noises like that. i have changed alternator pulley bearings in my toyotas before. i thought it was bearings at first too until i jumped myself with my aux battery, no sounds. then i knew for sure the alternator was working harder on that old battery. bought a 51r from costco for like 70 bucks and a o k.

 

[pihmpdaddi]

i don't think battery condition has an effect on alternator bearings.

I mean that a bad battery could make you notice already failing bearings because it loads up the alternator to max output for a longer period of time, heating up the bearings and amplifying the symptoms until the load decreases.

i never said a larger battery will make the alternator produce more current. a larger battery will demand more vs a smaller battery if both are drained to the same voltage. like i said, it takes much less time to charge a smaller battery.

Yes, it takes less time to charge a smaller battery from a discharged state. It does not take more time to charge a larger battery after 1 or 2 starts; only the same amount of energy needs to be returned to either battery. A larger battery cannot demand "more", it can only demand max current output for a longer period of time. So a failing battery will look like a bigger battery to the alternator, it doesn't know the difference.

im not against putting in a larger battery. just thought maybe these newer alternators are sensitive. i never had alternators make noises like that. i have changed alternator pulley bearings in my toyotas before. i thought it was bearings at first too until i jumped myself with my aux battery, no sounds. then i knew for sure the alternator was working harder on that old battery. bought a 51r from costco for like 70 bucks and a o k.

Understand your points, I'm just clarifying what's happening electrically with larger batteries. Bottomline: as long as the battery chemistry is the same, it doesn't matter what size (i.e. capacity) battery you use.

 

[DougRuss]

^^^^^^ ;-)

 

[partsbin]

honestly battery condition has nothing to do with bearings. this is the first start of the morning when i heard the whine. there is no time to generate heat instantly after first crank following a cold night. i changed all kinds of bearings from axles, to power steering pulley bearings including alternator bearings. battery condition has nothing to do with bearing noise. you can believe what you like but i know what i know.

a larger battery will demand more...more time to charge when drained to the same voltage vs a smaller battery.

i have nothing against putting in a larger battery but not too large. i think the element alternator is weak

 

[partsbin]

reading over your posts to mine...i feel like i am just repeating myself.

I mean that a bad battery could make you notice already failing bearings because it loads up the alternator to max output for a longer period of time, heating up the bearings and amplifying the symptoms until the load decreases.

show me a real life example of this happening. never once have i ran into a bad battery that took out bearings and i have owned over 10 cars and trucks and worked on countless others. have you ran into this issue in the past? where did you come up with this explanation? did you make it up?

 

[mr_manny]

i have nothing against putting in a larger battery but not too large. i think the element alternator is weak

Checked E Alternators, and all are rated around 100amps.

Doesn't sound weak to me...

 

[TheFunBox]

Someone else can chime in but I don't think any car's stock charging system is designed to properly charge/cycle/maintain a specific battery. .

Yes, I worked for BMW/MINI and anything we built after 2007, had to hook up to BMW Computer to both register the battery and reset the charging cycles since new batteries have a tendency to sit on a shelf for a bit before they are sold. Those cycles were dependent upon installing a stock size/type battery.

Was'nt sure if this was the case with Honda or not. I'm on my 3rd OEM battery:shock: and seems I need a new one every year. :-o They're replaced under warranty but with cold wx coming, and Sears closing their doors, was kinda thinking of going with larger Diehard battery.

 

[TheFunBox]

i noticed that when my 51r stock honda battery started to fail my alternator started to make a weird whining sound. after a minute or two it would go away. .

Ha ! mine is doing this too, started few weeks ago !!

 

[billzie]

In regard to the alternator whine, an alternator generally only makes noise from either end of its shaft (usually a bearing at each end but some have a bushing at the rear) or from the brushes/armatures. An alternator that is needing to draw more amperage, no matter the reason, can cause either of the areas to make noise if those components are nearing the end of their life. Note, this doesn’t mean it will always make a noise, but can, and is generally a good indicator that the alternator component in question is in need of replacement, as well as repair of the problem that caused that heavy draw, in this discussion a weakened battery. Over time a weak battery or other heavy amperage draws will lead to alternator component failure and vice-versa.
One other issue that can cause a brief noise is at startup after the vehicle has been sitting, say overnight or longer, which would allow condensation and/or the fine layer of rust it promotes (think brake rotor) to make the bearing squeal, however, even in this case it indicates bearing failure due to seal failure and lack of adequate grease within. So back to replacing alternator components.
I think the point that the poster was missing was that a fully functional and fully charged smaller and bigger battery will typically draw the approximately same loads from the alternator to “recharge” them but a different amounts of time, And, upon start up the larger battery isn’t usung as much of its capacity in % as the smaller battery, the starter will only draw what’s needed to start the engine. Doesn’t that make sense?
Now I’m more confused lol
Generally, most modern cars have alternator amperages of 105 a, some are higher especially in trucks that have much larger or two batteries, and I’m old so I remember, cars used to have 40 and 70 amp alternators, big engines to turn over, not much factory electronics (mainly a/c got you a 70 amp) but larger batteries typically. When ICE became a thing in the 80s I can’t remember how many older GM muscle cars I upgraded to the larger modern 105 amp csi alternators when I was an installer.
HTH, Bill.

 

[billzie]

On another note, I’m planning on upgrading to a larger battery. I’ve read most of this thread and seems like the 24 and 35 batteries are approximately the same cost but the 35 for whatever reason has more power although approximately the same overall volume size. Neither seem to be a difficult swap.
What I haven’t heard anyone here do is to go to the JY and get the battery tray, and all the hold down hardware from a car that used that size battery.
There are many Honda’s that use the 24 and several other manufacturers use the 35 (hint, 91-96 escorts tracers and protégés should be easy finds). That’s my plan.
I always get my batteries from Sams club due to price, ease of warranty exchange if needed, and price ( I know said it twice). Right now they are about $85 because they are running a sale, typically auto battery make the sale twice a year. And it’s a decently spec’d line manufactured for them.
Picking it up tomorrow after work.
HTH, Bill

 

[Rockn Mamma]

I wanted to share my accumulated knowledge after many(!) hours of research including reading every battery thread on the forums.

The stock 51R is woefully underpowered for the Element, particularly with cold weather and/or any kind of electrical mod or add-on. Judging from the numerous threads on battery issues, I would recommend everyone upgrade their battery at least one level (56) at next replacement.

Below is a list of proven sizes of minimal effort:

Group Size (w/ EOC URL) : Effort : CCA : Notes
51R Dropin ~450 (OEM - avoid)
56 Dropin ~500
47 Width ~550
35 Width ~600
34R Width ~650 (less common size)
24F Width ~700 (may require longer J hooks)

**51R & 56 are "Dropin", require no adjustments
**47, 35, 34R, 24F require simple "Width" adjustments: removal of plastic tray, wider tiedown strap, and bending J-hook tabs
**EOC URLs include DIY step-by-steps and hints and tips - read all even if not for your selected size

Some (simplified) general principles for consideration:

• size 56 / ~500 CCA is fine for the average driver
• anything >500 CCA increases reliability and allows for electrical mods
• the higher the CCA the stronger the battery in cold temperatures and longer life when car is off
• higher CCA = larger battery volume and/or higher price
• CCA varies by brand, quality/level, and price - numbers listed above are a guide
• using size variations not listed above may not fit .evdl.org/pages/bcigroup.html
• Optima batteries tend to be smaller thus terminal position is more flexible, but they're expensive $$$
• Sears DieHard has wonky numbering - be sure to go by "group size" not product number e.g. C-14, P5, G34R, etc.
• assuming similar CCA, go by dealer warranty and price, not by brand - I have yet to see convincing evidence either way that expensive batteries last longer (plenty of Optimas fail in <24 months) or that inexpensive batteries won't last long (my OEM 51R lasted 6 years)

Terminal Position
The reason the sizes above are listed and not others is both because of battery size, and because terminals come in a variety of positions. The positive (red/+/POS) and negative (black/-/NEG) can be anywhere. Imagine the top of a battery in a 4x4 grid:
1 2
3 4
The OEM battery cables are only so long and the OEM placement accommodates sizes only so well.

The ideal battery terminal arrangement without any mods is:
+ -
x x
This can also be accomplished by flipping a battery around! Where the "front"/sticker is doesn't matter:
x x
- +
All size listed above are in these arrangements. The "R" MUST be included - it means "reverse". Without out, a 51 may not fit, and a 34 is an absolute pain in the ass with lots of required adjustments.

Diagonal arrangements can be okay (but are less common and not included above.
+ x
x -
Middle arrangements can also be okay (but are less common). The Optimas below have middle terminals
x x
+ -
x x

Below is a list of proven sizes of more than minimal effort (bent/new tray, longer cables, longer hooks, remove and replace surrounding parts, etc.):

Group Size (w/ DIY URL) : CCA : Notes
34 / P4 ~750-900 (terminals wrong sides and obstructed)
BIG battery replacement - DIY
31R ~900 (monster, Optima 'red top')
31A ~900 (monster, Optima 'blue' or 'yellow top' only(?) because of terminals)

Backup Plans (highly recommended!)
I cannot recommend enough you get a battery jump pack. I've given away my jumper cables! This bad boy has saved me and others multiple times (Jump-N-Carry JNC300XLC).
.amazon.com/Jump-N-Carry-JNC300XLC-Ultraportable-Starter-Compliant/dp/B00CMP3Z4E/
It'll jump a stock Element on contact, and has jumped a V8 in seconds. There are lots of jumper combo kits available which are all mediocre. For not much more you can get quality individual components: jumper, tire pump, and inverter, but everyone's priorities are different. BTW, avoid this crap tire pump (Slime 40022);
it worked three times then broke. Get this heavy duty professional compressor for just a few bucks more (Viair 00073).

Finally, if you can't risk a dead battery (critical response, remote travel, etc.) get a battery protector. They're expensive (~$80-100), but they shut off all draw from the battery if it dips too low but leaves enough power to immediately start the vehicle. They also extend battery life by not allowing batteries to drain.


Me
I have little to no electrical experience. My personal struggle/journey of discovery started almost 3 years ago when GetAround added their "Connect" device to my car, an always-on GPS/cellular unit that allows tracking, data gathering, remote lock, etc. Though a small draw, it would drain the battery to the point of being unable to start the car if not driven for 4-5+ days. Then, when the temperatures dropped my car was dying daily. Long story, I eventually replaced the battery. It has lasted 2 years but is in the same position as before hence my need for an upgrade.

Hi, just read this old post of yours. Certainly learned a lot. My ‘04 had one of those tracking things and never realized the parasite drain so couldn’t start. Removed it and like you, 4-5 days of sitting and won’t start. But my Halo battery pack works wonders on first crank. I highly recommend them, too. So I’m getting a stronger battery at Costco. Don’t know yet what they have but will bring your article‼🙏🙏🙏

 

[jmgardner]

I was wondering if anyone has a list of parts (battery tray, hold down, j-hooks, ground cable, etc) they used when converting to a 24F battery.. I thought I saw one somewhere on the forum but I can not seem to find it again.
Thanks !!!!

 

[palepickle]

On another note, I’m planning on upgrading to a larger battery. I’ve read most of this thread and seems like the 24 and 35 batteries are approximately the same cost but the 35 for whatever reason has more power although approximately the same overall volume size. Neither seem to be a difficult swap.
What I haven’t heard anyone here do is to go to the JY and get the battery tray, and all the hold down hardware from a car that used that size battery.
There are many Honda’s that use the 24 and several other manufacturers use the 35 (hint, 91-96 escorts tracers and protégés should be easy finds). That’s my plan.
I always get my batteries from Sams club due to price, ease of warranty exchange if needed, and price ( I know said it twice). Right now they are about $85 because they are running a sale, typically auto battery make the sale twice a year. And it’s a decently spec’d line manufactured for them.
Picking it up tomorrow after work.
HTH, Bill

After reading so much here my head started getting cross threaded. I went to Rural King and started measuring actual batteries and noting the capacity of those that would fit. My intent was to install a 24F but I found the 10.25" width to be possibly a very tight fit in my '11. The 35 was a good 1.25" narrower and had a slightly higher CCA rating. Just to make sure I built a plywood battery of the same dimensions as the Group 35 at RK and will try it for size before I go buying one.
I may get fancy and connect a spare motorcycle battery to the cables while doing the work to save the radio and idle relearn hassles.

 

[183572]

This is great, thanks everyone for all the info and work you put in to share it! Now to go see what battery I have and upgrade before winter.

 

[Rockn Mamma]

After reading so much here my head started getting cross threaded. I went to Rural King and started measuring actual batteries and noting the capacity of those that would fit. My intent was to install a 24F but I found the 10.25" width to be possibly a very tight fit in my '11. The 35 was a good 1.25" narrower and had a slightly higher CCA rating. Just to make sure I built a plywood battery of the same dimensions as the Group 35 at RK and will try it for size before I go buying one.
I may get fancy and connect a spare motorcycle battery to the cables while doing the work to save the radio and idle relearn hassles.

great idea on the JY. I didn’t have that option so after a lot of trial and error with different size trays that fit a 24F battery size but not the vehicle, I found solution. I have an’04 EX. Someone suggested just bending out the J post hole

e flange on the original plate which I did.
Got longer J bolts and an adjustable tie bar, padded the tray depression with hard foam and with a little maneuvering, got it installed snuggly. I taped the Js so they wouldn’t drop off, pushed the other stuff away slightly and it was a perfect fit. No touching on anything

 

[183572]

My 51r battery must have saw my post, as I woke up today after our first below 40 degree night here in TN, to a stone dead battery. Had to get a ride to work and use a friends v8 truck to jump it off after work as the battery was so dead. Limped the element to Walmart and $74 and a prorated warranty later I’m the new owner of a 35, huge difference in cranking power right off the bat. I would have went with a 34r or 24f but the battery section was almost picked clean, lots of 51r’s left though.

 

[jlk]

I want to thank everyone that posted in this thread it really helped. I just put in a 24F battery in my 03 Element I had a 34R in before but couldn't find a 34R at a good price. I got the 24F at Costco for 99.99. I did have to add longer J hooks to my mounting bracket, I picked them up at O'Reilly Auto Parts the 8-inch hooks were just big enough.

 

[Edziu]

Heads up all, I was able to upgrade to a 24F battery using ONLY this kit from amazon. Less than $10. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002XL2I0Y/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I re-used the existing nuts.