[retox]

Man o man it's already 88F here in Pittsburgh. I just took a look at the #5 screen and its clean as a whistle. I did notice ( like someone else had posted) that there was a very slight rattle when i shock the solenoid unit. It did however allow me to rev past 3k, at least for the 2 blocks i drove it. It's possible that will change once the engine warms up. So now its off to get the oil changed, and I just ordered the entire assembly (#4) from majestic. With S&H it came to $88. Keep you posted on the outcome.

 

[retox]

So after I removed the solenoid and reinstalled it the code was no longer going off, and the problem has not come back in over a week! I canceled the part and with just 1 hour of labor my element is back to normal!

I did notice the screen (#5) looked very clean, perhaps if one simply unplugs the sensors on the oil solenoid body (there were two i believe) then it can reset itself, just a thought.

 

[the_box_rox]

Only one oil pressure switch for the v-tech.

Oh, okay, I thought there were two Vtec 'switches' and one solenoid? Can you please clarify?
RED ARROW = Switch
WHITE ARROW = Solenoid
BLUE ARROW = Switch

Also, Lizzurd...sorry for the repetitive posts...I need to quit thinking that perhaps a more descriptive title may lead me to answers faster.

 

[lizzurd]

 

[the_box_rox]

Okay, sorry for the stupidity but I'm having trouble locating the solenoid in the Honda parts schematic below:
http://www.hondapartsnow.com/engine/e__1010~2004~honda~element~5dr_ex_4wd_sd_a_1_b~5mt~ka~vtc~oil~control~valve.html

Can you identify the part number that is the Vtec solenoid? Is this the one that requires a 22mm socket for removal?
Does #4 come with the solenoid, the switch and the other goodies needed to "hopefully" take care of the P2647 code?

(I should probably read back through this thread...huh?)

 

[lizzurd]

#4 is the V-tec solenoid valve assembly.

#12 is the v-tec oil pressure switch.

#7 is the VTC (variable valve timing control) oil control soleniod valve.

 

[ramblerdan]

Thanks, Lizzurd. So that means

1) there really are two solenoids in the Element's VTEC system;

2) nineteen VTEC-related DTCs (P0010, P0026–P0029, P0075–P0085, P2648, P2649) have "solenoid" in their descriptions; and

3) on parts vendors' lists, the only VTEC part that actually has "solenoid" in its name (#9 in illustration above) is a bolt.

I can see how that would cause confusion!

 

[lizzurd]

Thanks, Lizzurd. So that means

1) there really are two solenoids in the VTEC system;

2) nineteen VTEC-related DTCs (P0010, P0026–P0029, P0075–P0085, P2648, P2649) have "solenoid" in their descriptions; and

3) the only part with "solenoid" in its name is a bolt.

I can see how that would cause confusion!

There is still only one soleniod for the V-Tec system.

The VTC while related is technically a different sytem.

Variable Timing Control (VTC)

The camshaft VTC (Variable Timing Control) system adds to the i-VTEC engine for continuously variable camshaft phasing across the engine's entire power band. As engine rpm builds, a VTC actuator - controlled by an engine-control unit that monitors cam position, ignition timing, exhaust emission and throttle position - advances or retards the intake cam throughout a range, optimizing engine output and reducing emissions.

During typical operation, the intake camshaft timing is almost fully retarded at idle to help provide more stable idling while reducing the exhaust emissions (Nox). As rpm increases, the intake camshaft is advanced, opening the intake valve sooner and providing additional valve overlap. This results in increasing fuel economy (by reducing pumping losses) and a further reduction in exhaust emissions (by creating a large internal exhaust gas re-circulation effect).
Also, to generate additional power throughout the rev range, the intake camshaft is continuously varying the amount of advance or retard, instantly adjusting to provide additional power as required by the driver.

 

[ramblerdan]

Oh, I had thought i-VTEC was just a refinement of some earlier VTC system. Thanks for that.

So we have VTC (Variable Timing Control) and i-VTEC (intelligent Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control) on the same cylinder head. That, in addition to the absence of "solenoid" in the part names, will always engender confusion, I'm afraid.

 

[lizzurd]

Oh, I had thought i-VTEC was just a refinement of some earlier VTC system. Thanks for that.

So we have VTC (Variable Timing Control) and i-VTEC (intelligent Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control) on the same cylinder head. That, in addition to the absence of "solenoid" in the part names, will always engender confusion, I'm afraid.

Welcome to my world.

Where in the parts listings were definately not written by the same people that wrote the service manuall.

If they call it one name in the service manual you would only thing it to be logical to call it the same name in the parts books......

 

[Flat Lander]

Welcome to my world.

Where in the parts listings were definately not written by the same people that wrote the service manuall.

If they call it one name in the service manual you would only thing it to be logical to call it the same name in the parts books......

Unfortunately, it's the same in my line of work (aircraft maintenance). It's frustrating that the Aircraft OEM's have a job position titled "Nomenclaturist". It's more frustrating that most of the people in that position have never even seen an airplane, let alone worked on one. We have the same issues with the people that write the maintenance manuals and parts catalogs, two different groups that have little to no communication with each other.

 

[mjwboofer]

P2647 & p2649

This has been an amazingly helpful thread.
I had Code was P2647 at about 95,000 miles and I hoped it was just low oil (I did add 1 qt, which seemed to help briefly but the light remained on) and would often (but not always) get the acceleration problems as others have described. It seemed to do better once it was warmed up.

At one point, I did have P2649 as well. I changed the oil (but wasn't hopeful) and when that didn't work, I replaced the whole VTEC solenoid assembly (which includes the pressure switch). I test drove it tonight and it seems to be all better now.

The local Honda dealer's price was not a lot higher than having it shipped in 2nd day air. I was surprised how easy it was to get at...the tip of removing the right front wheel was essential (and I did my serp belt at the same time).

I have used synthetic (Royal Purple then Mobil 1) for the 40,000 I've owned the car (so did prior owner). I'll admit that I ran it a bit longer (6,000-8,000) between oil changes and someone suggested that may be a contributing factor in this.

Thanks to all who posted amazing tips, perspectives and advice on this one. Once again the "What is most likely wrong?" approach seems to have saved me some $$$.

 

[the_box_rox]

A little update.
I replaced the complete vtec valve assembly or as some refer to it; the oil pressure switch solenoid assembly or as Honda refers to it; VALVE ASSY., SPOOL. In any case, it's part# 4 in the below schematic.

So far I've driven 50 miles and no CEL and no code. I'm not jumping for joy quite yet. Last time it took 80 something miles before the CEL came back on... I've got my fingers crossed.

For the record; changing this part out is darn near as simple as it gets. I had the old one out and the new one installed in 17 minutes...no exaggeration. If you know what a 3/8" drive ratchet, a 3" extension and a shallow 10mm socket is do not be afraid to tackle this job. The biggest problem you will have and what will take the longest is locating the bolt holes in the backside of the head when reassembling. It's in a 'blind-spot' and you'll need to feel with your fingers and poke the bolt around until you feel the 'sweet spot'. I cheated and zip-tied a small pocket mirror to the back of the firewall; it worked perfect but my wife is pissed...apparently she loved her little mirror and hated the small hole I drilled in it for my zip-tie...GOOD LUCK!

 

[Neslo D]

my story

I just went through this same issue and here's my story and theory.

Story: Car started missing/falling on it's face under load. I followed everyone's advice and replaced the switch. While doing this I saw the screen was pretty badly blocked so I cleaned that. Went for a drive and the car went a lot further and then the problem came back. I then replaced the entire valve spool assembly (~$100 from Honda) and changed the oil and filter. After this the problem is gone.

Theory. In hindsight I bet that all of the sensors were fine. I checked resistance across the terminals of both parts (old and new) and they matched. I think the only problem was the oil filter I had. When I drained the oil it didn't come pouring out of the filter like it usually does. After I replaced the switch I noticed the screen was clogged again making me think it was just the screen clogging. It was around a $150 lesson total.

Advice: If you take the assembly apart and see that the screen is clogged, that's probably the only problem. Replace the screen, change the engine oil and filter and try it out. I'm guessing that if I had done this I would've avoided spending $ on parts. If the filter isn't clogged then try either replacing just the switch or the entire spool ass'y.


D

 

[Chewdoggie]

P2646 & P1009 after collisions

2005 E-ex at. I'm throwing a p2646 & p1009 after picking my car up from body shop. This last accident was a collision of the front right of my E vs 17 yr old going about 25-30 mph. I thought it was mostly cosmetic damage...$2k. But now I'm throwing these codes 3 miles from the body shop, car bucks...and surprise, insurance is saying that its probably not accident related (you pay for it). Oil level was fine, last change was 4k ago. Now the side note is, that six months ago some distracted driver hit me in the same place on the car while I was stopped in an intersection. He was going about 50mph...caused $12k in damage/repair costs. Included throttle body replacement...total engine and transmission removal and reinstall.... Car has been getting crap gas mileage since then....appx. 16.7mpg city...poor acceleration compared to my 2004 Element....and idles at 1100 rpm at start up. Does anyone know if there could be any relation to these codes relating to either throttle body, engine assembly from first accident, impacts...or is this just more bad luck? I'm going to check the screen, do the oil filter change and see if the p2646 clears, but I'm worried about the p1009 and possibility that this goesback to first accident. I know I'm throwing a lot out, but its been a bad six months...and btw airbags have never deployed...so I'm not having alot of confidence in this car anymore. She looks great tho....body shop has her back to new. Any ideas are helpful.

 

[lizzurd]

P1009 HONDA - Variable Valve Timing Control Advance Malfunction

Possible causes
- Engine oil level
- Dirty engine oil
- Check VTC Strainer for blockage
- Faulty VTC Oil Control Solenoid or circuit
- Faulty VTC Actuator
- Engine mechanical problems

Tech notes
An stretched timing chain or damaged tensioner can also caused triggered the P1009 code. Before replacing timing chain or tensioner, check engine oil level and condition. Replaced engine oil and filter with factory recommend oil weight if necessary.

P1009 HONDA Description
The variable valve timing control (VTC) system controls the phase of the intake camshaft. It uses oil pressure to operate the VTC actuator so the valve timing is optimized depending on driving conditions. The engine control module (ecm)/Powertrain control module (pcm) monitors the phase control command and the actual timing of the camshaft by using camshaft position (CMP) sensor A. If an over-advanced camshaft phase (compared to the directed value) continues or when the camshaft phase is otherwise abnormal, a malfunction is detected and a DTC is stored.


If you haven't already done so i would look at cleaning the VTC strainer.

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=908749&postcount=76

 

[ramblerdan]

Reseat-connector fix

Back in October 2010, I encountered the "limp mode" 3K rpm limit. Naturally it was on a Friday evening of a holiday weekend. I drove home (very slowly!) and ordered a VTEC oil pressure switch, solenoid, and gaskets online.

The next day, with the engine cool, I decided to poke around so as to get an idea of what would be involved physically with the repair, and removed the solenolid connector to see what size wrench I would need. Put the connector back on, started the engine, and voila, no more problem. After a couple of starts and miles, the Check Engine light went off.

So the problem was simply a bad electrical connection. Ever since then, though, I've carried the replacement parts in the car just in case.

This past weekend the same problem occured while I was on the interstate. I pulled over, reseated the solenoid connector, and was back on the road in five minutes. The Check Engine light has also gone off.

Makes you wonder how many owners have replaced those parts unnecessarily.

This is just one example of why I tell people to reseat connectors and check grounds as a first resort when troubleshooting weird electrical problems.

Edit, August 2012: Happened for a third time last week. This time it close to home, so I was able to fashion a tool to clean the contacts and applied dielectric grease to the connections. Ran fine afterward, and as with the other times, the engine light eventually went out on its own.

Edit, January 2015: Finally had to replace my VTEC solenoid for real. The thing lasted 10 years and 200,000 miles, and the connector reseats saved me from having to replace it prematurely.

 

[desinia]

Back in October 2010, I encountered the "limp mode" 3K rpm limit. [blah blah] This is just one example of why I tell people to reseat connectors and check grounds as a first resort when troubleshooting weird electrical problems.

What kind of connectors are on that? The reason I ask is because this reminds me of a chronic problem that GM v-8 engines had for years in the distributor. They had a module under the rotor that got ground from a large contact surface made of dissimilar metals that oxidized (but you couldn't see it) and ruined performance until you pulled it out, cleaned both surfaces, and greased the heck out of it to slow down the next bunch. I'm wondering if Honda is using something like that - aluminum connectors on copper pins, etc.

 

[ramblerdan]

You can't see much without disassembling one of those connectors. AFAIK all the Honda connectors use steel conductors.

 

[Reiterdie]

What tools are needed to replace 15810-RAA-A03* (VALVE ASSY., SPOOL )

Hello,

My wife drives an 07 Element which I've grown quite attached to, she bought it before we started dating. She's got the old P2647 CEL code and I want to fix this by myself as the Honda dealership is quoting $267+tax to replace just the oil pressure switch.

After reading this thread I'm thinking I may just do the whole valve assy, spool.

First off, for someone who knows next to nothing about being a mechanic but has a good head on his shoulders and loves to do "guy stuff", how reasonable is it to think I can replace the 15810-RAA-A03 (being an extreme amateur) and what tools do I need to get the job done? I appreciate your feedback and input, help me look like a champ with my wife...Thanks. I need to get my wife's car fixed.